Units charging without LoS for all models
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Units charging without LoS for all models
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02-11-2013 06:56 PM
Post: #1
Units charging without LoS for all models



Khazrak Offline
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Can anyone please explain, how to handle a charge in which not all models have LoS at the beginning of the charge or can't charge the enemy in a straight line but otherwise have enough charge movement to actually engage the enemy model?

If I understood the charging rules on p.64 correctly, I move the remaining models the full charge distance however I want, even not in straight lines or to engange models, which I had no LoS in the beginning.

My only disadvantage here would be, that I can't make charge attacks with the incorrect charging models but further attacks are allowed, although I'd have to suffer the counterattacks against the whole unit.

This is the way, I understand it to work. However, this leads to an easily abusive way of tactics when I have fast moving troops (like in my case, I had a unit of Fomorian Gut-Hackers with upgraded Long Legs boost which led to a whooping 16" charge distance). Now the abusive part: I can hide the whole unit behind a building or forrest and let just a tiny part of one model visible. When I have my next activation (and the enemy models are still visible to the one peeking guy), I can move freely 16" over the field, engaging whatever I want as long as I'm in unit formation.

Was this anticipated or wanted? In our game (me against ranged combat heavy Mortans), this happened with only 2 models being able to charge and because we didn't know exactly how to handle it at the moment, I just forfeited the whole combat turn with the other Gut-Hackers.
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02-11-2013 09:32 PM
Post: #2
RE: Units charging without LoS for all models



El Cid Offline
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Yes, the Models without LoS may move the distance and engage.

I don't really see the abuse in your example. A unit of guthackers has 5 Act and when you hide 4 from them you forfeit 4 attacks out of 10 on your charge and suffer the counter attacks, before you attack. Plus the Action Points for the spell.
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02-12-2013 09:26 AM
Post: #3
RE: Units charging without LoS for all models



André Offline
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all right, so that´s all correct, but if you charge with a unit where only one guy is able to draw LOS, then only this guy get´s its charge attack. this means the whole unit spends the ACT for only 1 charge attack and the whole unit can get counter attacked. don´t see the big benefit here Smile

how did you managed the 16 inches of movement? long legs and furious charge? that would give you a charge range of 12 inches...
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02-12-2013 10:22 AM
Post: #4
RE: Units charging without LoS for all models



El Cid Offline
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I thought about that too and found the answer:

Long legs give +1 mov, upgraded the Long Charge Option. Mov 4x3, + 2 Charge and the subfaction + 2 = 16 inch charge movement.
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02-12-2013 11:37 AM
Post: #5
RE: Units charging without LoS for all models



André Offline
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ah, right Smile so, yeah, with the upgrade effect that would work!
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02-12-2013 11:58 AM
Post: #6
RE: Units charging without LoS for all models



David Offline
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Hi Khazrak,

The plan you outlined is valid and a typical option for Wyldfolk. Using it on Guthackers is certainly hard but not at all incorrect or broken.

Keep in mind that the movement to exit the forest counts as difficult terrain until the base is fully on normal terrain.

Your two Guthackers who are in range can make attacks. the other Guthackers who had no LOS can indeed by placed in MEL range (assuming they have enough charge movement for that) but they may not make charge attacks. And while the Mortans are making their counter attacks, all of the Mortans in MEL range may attack any of your Guthackers, including the ones which made no charge attack.

For that reason the plan is not unbalanced, because potentially the Legionnaires might have 6 more attacks than you (depending how you placed your models.

In your plan you have the possibility to make one light attack (POW4) and one heavy attack (POW7). If you assign one action token to the Guthackers, they could make 2 X POW7 attacks, but then they do not have enough ACT to use the Circular Slash tactic while making 2X heavy attacks.

So if you are going to do this plan you really want to assign the Guthackers 1 ACT before the charge. then you can get one light attack and one heavy attack. If not, then make 2X light attacks.

Such buffed super-charges were definitely foreseen (and we definitely tried such plans ourselves during playtest). This is one of the reasons that we made passive activations allowing models to counter-attack, and why we made melee simultaneous.

In most cases, the charged unit can counter-attack and kill some of the chargers. So even if a buffed super-charge is devastating, the wiped-out unit should have been able to do some damage too.

In order to get devastating charges in Godslayer it requires strategic play. We want strategic play to be rewarded with success. To pull off this your plan you need the following:

A) to succeed in casting the spell Long Legs
B) to succeed in upgrading the spell Long Legs
C) properly position your troops in suitable location
D) lure the enemy into charge range
E) avoid enemy models engaging you or blocking you or charging you first

If you can do all that, then you deserve to massacre the unit you charge.

Generally your opponent will be more careful the next time :-)

In future games he is more likely to:
A) avoid such a trap or offer only a sacrifice model
B) prepare a buffed defensive unit to accept the charge
C) prepare a trap of his own to charge your Guthackers after their fury is spent.


If the opposing Legionnaires were not in Testudo then that's also a mistake of the opponent. In Testudo they would have DEF15 and ARM11.

So even a charge by Guthackers will need to work hard to wipe out a unit of Legionnaires in Testudo. Remember that Circular Slash requires a successful attack roll against each opponent. Guthackers MEL 7 (+1 for charge bonus) vs. DEF15 means a 7+ to hit. Then POW4 (+1 for charge bonus) vs ARM 11 means you need 7+ to wound, and 11+ to kill a Legionnaire.

So your first two Guthackers might kill two Legionnaires and wound some others, then 8 Legionnaires counter-attack your Guthackers.
Then all of your Guthackers can then attack, killing or severely wounding most of the Legionnaires, then all Legionnaires can make a second attack.

There are good chances that you will lose a couple of Guthackers during this plan. And afterwards they will probably be in range of charges by other Mortan models/units.

Its a good plan and if you can pull it off then you deserve to wipe out the enemy unit, but as I mentioned, the opponent should be able to plan for this and counter it and if not, then you deserve to win that game.

If I was the opponent, I would place a single model in charge range of your Guthackers. then either your guthackers charge the single model or he charges them in the next round. With the single model I would engage one guthacker, and bind the unit in melee while I prepared a unit or a couple of creatures to charge your Guthackers. If you did charge my single model, then I would charge your Guthackers with my Creatures/unit.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2013 12:08 PM by David.)
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02-12-2013 12:31 PM
Post: #7
RE: Units charging without LoS for all models



Christian Offline
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I think what he ment was that the one who can charge charges and the rest of the unit engages with the big movement bonus other parts of the enemy army, which cant attack back, as long as they arent attacked. And the one who made a valid charge charged just in the melee range of one enemy, so that the counterattacks would be a waste of action tokens.

But this can fire back. First, if the one model with LOS gets killed, you have a really expensive supported piece which is worthless. Second, if I just engage the one with LOS so that the others dont have LOS, you need to kill the engaging model before your Guthackers can do their thing, or the whole activation of the unit is screwed, because they cant charge anymore and they need ACT to move in good positions, because they stand behind a big blocking terrain.
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02-12-2013 07:22 PM
Post: #8
RE: Units charging without LoS for all models



Khazrak Offline
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@André: What El Cid said. That's where I got the 16" charge range, which in combination is really quite a lot.

@David: 16" free movement for just 2 ACT is quite fine for me. Smile
And afterwards, the good Gut-Hacker base values (or other similar elite troops) should be enough to cause good havoc. Smile
However, you have a very good point, that all of this requires heavy planning and some stuff has to work but in this case, it wasn't that hard because of the Gut-Hacker magic-supporting special ability. On the other hand I could have bound half the enemy ranged army and so shut down the dangerous shooting.

@all: Yeah, all valid points. I just wasn't really sure, if all this is was foreseen and wanted. In the given example, the Mortan troops weren't even Legionnaires but Xisteri Bombers and so I wouldn't really be that much afraid of losing too many Gut-Hackers. Smile
However, in the end, I really lost almost 1 expensive Gut-Hacker because of bad rolls and next turn a big fire bomb crashes right into the middle of the milling melee.^^
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2013 07:23 PM by Khazrak.)
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02-12-2013 07:40 PM
Post: #9
RE: Units charging without LoS for all models



Simon Offline
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@Khazrak: There is one mistake if I understood your explanation right. Since you have to charge in a straight line, it is almost impossible to hide the model that should have LoS. So either the enemy can shoot him down easily, or can move his troops in a way that you can't charge him cause of interfering obstacles...

"I find your lack of faith disturbing"
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02-12-2013 09:47 PM
Post: #10
RE: Units charging without LoS for all models



Khazrak Offline
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(02-12-2013 07:40 PM)Simon Wrote:  @Khazrak: There is one mistake if I understood your explanation right. Since you have to charge in a straight line, it is almost impossible to hide the model that should have LoS. So either the enemy can shoot him down easily, or can move his troops in a way that you can't charge him cause of interfering obstacles...

Sure, depends however on some other points:
- "Easily" shooting down isn't easily done for all armies as not always, missile troops are brought to the battlefield.
- We play with a good amount of terrain, but not many huge LOS-blockers. So, moving your own models behind obstacles or out of sight isn't that easy if they begin their turn in rather open field or a bad position to get away.
- Depending on the melee range of the "chosen charger", interfering obstacles have to be big enough, otherwise, I change my charge angle to get at least in engangement range.
- Activations: One point I really like about this game is the tactical question of activation sequence. In the above given example, I could place the Gut-Hackers after the Bombers had activated and after that, I had the first activation on the next turn.

Altogether as already mentioned, it came down to a longer chain of successful things happening and so deserved success...a bit. Smile
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