(12-12-2012 12:22 PM)Rhunmaki Wrote: But the problem is that the upgrade/permanent mutation is very hard to get on model with a low MAG. And you get very fast to the point where it is uncastable.
Okay I see what you mean. Upgrade Mutation is on a 14+ and Permanent Mutation is on a 15+.
As Simon mentioned, Permanent Mutation only applies to friendly models/units, and such spells count as incantations, so you do not add the MAG of the target to the casting complexity because they are of course friendly troops.
In such cases casting Permanent Mutations on models rolling 15+ with a MAG of 7 means an 8+ to succeed, which is a 41.64% chance. That's pretty decent odds for such a hard effect since permanent mutations are in game terms effectively like spells being cast every round with guaranteed success and costing zero ACT.
Upgrade Mutation spells cast on freindly models using the other mutation spell-sets would count as incantation spells and would be cast without adding the target MAG to the complexity. So that means an easy 7+ to succeed for the Bisotaur Shaman (58.3% chance of success).
Regarding the Upgrade Mutations, I would refer to page 77 section on Thaumaturgy "Spells which target an enemy model unit take into account the MAG statistic of the target." the Original Malevolent Muitation was cast against an enemy model and so Malevolent Mutations would count as thaumaturgy spells. Since the target of the Upgrade Mutation of a Malevolent Mutation spell is still the same target (an enemy model), for Malevolent Mutations spell-set spells, this means they also count as Thaumaturgy spells since they are indeed targetting enemy models.
You are absolutely right that this does make it pretty challenging to get the upgrades through with the Malevolent Mutations but they are very hard effects.
Against mediocre models with MAG2, you will need a basic 10+ with the Bisotaur Shaman. (16.65% chance).
Against MAG3 models you will need an 11 or 12 (8.32% chance).
so very tough rolls, but when you have Guthackers with you and can benefit from their Aura of Corruption. This makes it realistic to get Upgrade Mutations through on Malevolent Mutations against models with MAG 2 & 3.
That's a lot of models in the game: Hoplites Amazons, Hill Ogres, BeastHunter, Bladeslingers, Scabhta Hunters, Fjellgangr, Bloodvarg, fimbul toughborns, Skannfyrd Kinswords, chainslayer, Scorpio, Catacysm Catapult, Xisteri Bombers, Carnifexors, Legio Mortum, Legionnaires Princeptor etc.
Of course that does leave all warlords, spell-casters, elite magical troops and magical characters plus Clans sub-faction models outside the realms of the probably and even renders many impossible.
This was intended to be that way due to the effects of the upgrade being so powerful.
In wave-one, the Guthackers Aura of Corruption is pretty much your best option for such a plan. Witchweed Extract (+1 to all stats) and the Staff of Mors (reroll any one die once) could also be used in conjunction to make even MAG4 models realistic targets for upgrading Malevolent Mutations.
Perhaps in the future we can consider an item which could be used to buff spell-casting of Malevolent Mutations, but that will need careful play-testing since it would be really powerful.