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Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Printable Version
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Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Mnil - 02-11-2014 09:12 PM
Here in Poznan, we have probably most developed Godslayer community in Poland. (probably one of the biggest in general), and we play many tournaments, where the power of Magistratum is (almost) unbeatable...
We have struggled a lot with army based on Legio Mortum / Mortifex and 2 (it's only 160points with good eq) or even more Necromagus - they seem to be too strong and cheap.
I play Banebrood, so of course i can't use my plagues, horror/fear, stench, bloodthirst or other extra abilities against non-living models, it's very hard to broke through the wall of Legio Mortum, where each turn extra 4, or even more are added if nessesary.
Even with maxiumum upgraded GoreLord and boosted mongrels i can't make way to Mortifex or Necromagus, because of Mortifex's Soulbound and/or good placement of troopers and legion of dead.
If overhelming ammount of skeletons won't surround and kill me after charge then spells with sometimes 20+ range will do that...
If i use urspaine with rolling doom and enter the range of Mortifex i wont be able to attack next turn because i will die from spells, extra skeletons or Mortifex will simply use his bodyguard etc etc...
I know that other factions arround me have also no idea how to deal with Magistratum...
Don't you guys think that they are "a little bit" too strong?
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - ArcusCalka - 02-12-2014 12:04 AM
/jaaaaaaaaaaaaaki płacz/ ^^
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Khazrak - 02-12-2014 12:23 AM
Don't get me wrong, but I have the impression, that not everything here is played as it is supposed to.
1.) First of all, how are the Mortans able to get spells with 20+ range? The maximum in their list is 10". Even with 1 Ancestral Token, that's only 12". There is no long range for spells. When they channel through the Legio Mortum models, the direct damage is not reduced by their faction ability.
2.) In order to get the good undead units, the Mortifex/Necromagus has to generate either Ancestral Tokens or personally kill enemy models. To do so, he has to invest ACT in spells or risk enganging enemies. So, less ACT to generate Legio Mortum and/or he has to stay behind his troops while they move forward. But then they lose the boni from his Ancestral Tokens. Also, it shouldn't be possible to create more than 4 Legio Mortum per turn with 3 necromancers as it's 3 ACT per spell attempt (2 from the Mortifex and 1 each from the Necromagi).
3.) Additionally, he has to use 1 ACT for the Bodyguard tactic or if you are further away for the Spirit Shroud tactic (and he can't have both at the same time). Remember, he can't use Bodyguard as reaction - the tactic has to be on him before he is attacked!
4.) Remember, that for thaumaturgy spells ( = offensive spells against enemy models), the spell complexitiy is raised by the target's MAG value.
5.) What about your Mongrels paired with a Fallow Shaman with the Bulging Biceps spell? With this spell + powerful fighting style (or charge bonus or upgraded spell), you get over the magic POW4 limit and should walk through the Legio Mortum as if it wasn't there.
6.) Have you tried Fomorian Guthackers? Sure, they don't have models, yet, but we here are playing with proxies often not to miss out on all the units. With their Circular Slash, they should be the perfect Legio Mortum killers. Same counts for the other elite high-POW units of the other factions like Hill Ogres, Sons of War, Einherjer (they will have quite an easy game) or big monsters like Cerberos or Fjellgangr.
7.) Your Reaver subfaction can be an early threat for the Magistratum armies with the Raider ability of your Bloodgut Ravagers. Maybe two of them with either Reaver Tribesmen (base POW4) or even Skulleaters (with activated Carnage tactic, they all may make Slay Movement with POW6 attacks). So then you have 2 dangerous units closer to the enemy lines right at the start of the game and so they don't have that much time to generate Legio Mortum or Ancestral Tokens.
8.) You can give your Gorelord the Urghast Charm to make him completely immune to enemy spells and magic attacks - it's only 3 points.
And without enough Ancestral Tokens, the Legio Mortum may make only 1 POW 2 attack with MEL 5 as they normally may not get ACT-tokens from the warlord and may not chose a fighting style. So, they should not be even close to good enough for your GoreLord with Urghast Charm and Gut-Plate of Negirrath for that sweet DEF15 and (almost) immunity to critical hits.
9.) Avoid the enemy troops. The Legio Mortum are slow and the characters need their ACT to raise troopers - they will have a hard time to get to you. After some games, your opponent will realize that you (especially the fast Banebrood) can easily avoid him and so, in the end, nobody wins - it's most likely a boring draw. And then he has to change his list.
That's one of the most common errors in tabletop gaming: People think, they HAVE to engage the enemy troops or fight at all. But remember, that you as Banebrood player have by far the fastest army in this game - nobody but you dictates when and where to fight - at least not as good as you.^^
Soo, I hope these few points can help you to destroy that evil necromantic threat.
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Kevin - 02-12-2014 01:11 AM
Unfortunetly not only Banebroods in Pozen have problem with Legio Mortum. For me unfortunetly the biggest problem is combination of Morfixex, 2/3 Necromagus(depends on the point we're playin) and Legio Mortum Unit. One Necromagus for raising (un)dead(in my book that spell costs only 2 Acts) and both Mortifex and second Nacromagus casting Ashes to Ashes - spell that not only cause Pow 2 hit on every model in unit but also cause Rot effect which means that without rollin 5+ on countinus effect my troops die in 2/3 turns just from standin .
One of your points was that castin trought Legio Mortum deals them demage - yop, so what - unless it kills them at the end of the turn then can replanish health bar to max. Even if, they can transfer demage to Mortifex(yop - if sth did charge him, know that you doin sth wrong) and still they get "healthy" again at the end of the turn.
Also what I don't like in raisin them is the "bridge" effect - when you raise skeleton it has to be 2" from at least on from the unit to be in formation. So ya cast it ones and place it 2" up front, the second would be 4" from the unit and 2" from the first raised and so on. In the Bridge official scenario thats kinda unfair.
From the funny things I do play Helodynes - the only fraction that can get Magic Resistance on hole army. Funny thing is that I have to win the priority roll first to cast Faith tactis(that of course only if I'm playin with Oracle) and caunt on passing the lead test
Bout usin profils without miniatures - dunno why but we're forbiden from usin proxes of them while playin in tournament - kinda obvious but still Fomorian Guttrackers won't be killin Undead until we have minis
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Zeria - 02-12-2014 02:51 AM
how about using multiple ursapine's , if you get a few of them up the table it forces your opponent to either go more offensive with his magic and therefore not have that extra troops being brought into play or risk the two or even three ursapine's rolling over his troops and in range to threaten his back lines with multiple threats, all while the rest off your force advance and destroy his undead front ranks. The ursapine's are a great cheap creature and super fast especially when buffed with long legs , having them able to move so fast and still throw a few pine's out is quite a threat if used correctly and they do take a lot of practice getting used too.
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Mnil - 02-12-2014 03:25 AM
KHAZRAK - I see You have no idea how to play Mortum dude, if you want i can describe it to You next post.
1) You answered yourself. No reduce, but after end of turn they will all have their health full again, wow, great "sacrifice"...
2) No... it has cost of 2..., there can be a lot to summon, move and spell
3) Haha, Bodygaurd is finality, normally he never need it...
4) Wow, so you need sometimes to score 5,6 max 7, not too hard to get...
5) i tried it today i lost 2 mornglers before charge, later i killed 2 or 3 but there were 7 more, GoreLord killed wasn't enought too with summons and Soulbound...
6) i will try when they are realised, but they are expensive, i won't be able to use many of them in this match-up
7) slay movement doesn't work versus Soullbound, so they give me nothing.
8) i gave, but i need to kill, not to wait for surround me and kill anyway,
Yeap def 15, but some of 20 hits with melee 5 + AT + FS, will give some 8s (enough to destroy me)...
9) what is that point stand for? to draw? wtf? avoid is nosense, i will die from spells...
For now i don't see any chance to play it normal with more than 10% for win with Banebrood. Other factions are also far from equal to Magisterium so far...
I think you didn't play to much versus that, or with op without suitable game plan.
Many things you said are contrary with reality, but thanks for try.
ZERIA - 3x Ursapine cost almost 120 points, so what are you talking about? Where is "rest of my force"?
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Khazrak - 02-12-2014 03:47 AM
MNIL - I'd ask you to mind your manners. You come here asking for advice and others might invest quite some time to look things up or think about solutions only to be answered with rudeness - that's a no go!
OK, I looked up one point wrong - it's 2 ACT not 3, dunno, what I was looking at - however, my argument still stands - there can't ever be enough ACT for all of this all the time - nor health - when you strike down 4 models at once, he can't allow his Mortifex to use Soulbound against all of them (just an example).
Your initial post sounds like you let your enemy dictate the whole battle and this with a slow, cumbersome army and the exact same point can be seen again in your answers to point 8 and 9: If you play to lose, you will lose. If you walk willingly into your opponent's arms - and on his terms - he will butcher you.
I have seen the necromancer army in action myself, we talked quite a bit about it and finally came to the conclusion that against a good general, it will hardly ever win much more than a stalemate as they are too slow and there are never enough ACT to get enough movement, legionnaires raised, offensive spells cast, ancestral tokens prepared and in the end, the Legio Mortum is weak as hell without all the support it can get.
And you know what? - I am out of this thread now as I can't stand willingness to help and willingness to start a discussion getting answered with rudeness. -.-
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Huscarl - 02-12-2014 10:23 AM
Mnil, maybe you could post an exact magistratum list, which you find so overpowered?
Edit: And don´t offend other users, remember, that in different gaming areas, there are also different preferences and gaming styles. (And not everybody plays 160 to 300-Point-Games)
One last thing: which other factions are played in your gaming area? Do you use proxies or not? And do you also play other scenarios than open battle?
Because I just don`t see all factions so inferior to the Magistratum.
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Zeria - 02-12-2014 12:09 PM
I agree with khazrak , we are putting forward suggestions of things you may or may not tried and don't expect to be answered with such comments. On the suggestion on my front in a 300 point game two or three ursapines while an investment still leaves you a good amount of points too use on other troops especially as there is no point investing in a pest ringer and plagues against your opponent.
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army... - Mnil - 02-12-2014 12:26 PM
There was no offence, just my frustration, because i want to hear something with sense. Sorry if somebody felt offended.
Anybody noticed Kevin's post? He is wrong too? :|
Zeria - i am talking about situation with <200 points versus Morti 2x Necro and 6 skeletons..
We play various of scenarios and factions. You have seen Helodynes' point of view above...
I wish i could see the raport when you're winning with that composition Khazrak
I think we are talking about other systems, so i don't want to argue.
Maybe we will discuse later, when you find it out...