Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...
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Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...
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02-12-2014 12:31 PM
Post: #11
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



Raoul Offline
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(02-12-2014 10:23 AM)Huscarl Wrote:  Mnil, maybe you could post an exact magistratum list, which you find so overpowered?
I would be interested in the same, and I would be interested to know what factions did fail against them.

In all the testplaying we never experienced the Magistratum as overpowered in the way you describe. However, it could always be something was missed during testing. Likewise, it could be that you missed something while playing. So this discussion is necessary and should be lead in a constructive way. And while we discuss, please stay calm and fair everybody. Smile

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02-12-2014 01:01 PM
Post: #12
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



Mnil Offline
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Build with
Mortifex with ashes to ashes, raise legionarie, ancestral crystal - something like that
2 x Necromagus - raise legionarie or/and orther world breach and 2nd one ashes to ashes
Legio Mortum x 6

It's about 160 points. You make double wall of skeletons, with mortifex Soulbound it's almost impossible to brake through to him. Later when you are stopped, summoned Skeletons will surround you and with pe. ancestral crystal kill you leader like GoreLord next turn. Rest of unit like Monglers or Urspaines (Helodynes have simillar situation, slow Nordgaard too) will die from spells -which can be too easly spread through whole battlefied with "bridge" of skeletons, with rot effect you whole unit will disapear soon.

If i could change anything i will cut/modify Mortifex's soulbound, or nerf bridge channeling or make "raise legionnaire" more expensive. It's too powerfull.

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02-12-2014 03:59 PM
Post: #13
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



Zeria Offline
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Hmm I see what your saying, problem is and I don't think it's a game design fault as all games run into this. At certain point values total certain unit/warlord combo's will be more powerful ,the game I think is play tested for 300 so that's where the real balance would lay. So for a low points value and no model rep it's going to be a tricky one, how about going for a large unit of reavers backed up with bulging biceps and exo skeleton, running or charging these in and then using eaten alive would hopefully kill a lot or most of the skellie unit (the only 4 life of the skellie's really gives the reavers the edge and even two on one with eaten alive should be able to kill one.) taking a reaver tyrant as well would give them the sub faction ability so they can stay alive longer themselves and he is a slightly cheaper option then the gore lord as well as having a decent ranged weapon with his chain axe, thats before you get into his tactics he can give the reaver tribesmen as well. It's a slower army so spells might hit you more but keeping to woods if there are any will cut down the enemys los to you and the reavers don't care it doesn't slow them. Just and idea, mainly because I really like eaten alive tactic it can really surprise some players as its only 1 ACT

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02-12-2014 04:06 PM
Post: #14
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



Raoul Offline
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Indeed the game was tested mainly with warbands of 300 pts value, but also with warbands ranging from 200 to 500-600 pts. In fact, only starterbox games were planned and thoroughly tested with 160 pts. And starterbox games include no Magistratum at all. Wink

With almost double the points value, the problems should even out quite a bit. However, I will think about the given 160 pts scenario some more and come back to it soon.

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02-12-2014 04:13 PM
Post: #15
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



Mnil Offline
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You are right, but talking about higher points like 300, Mortum will add Pretorians, scropions etc, we won't be playing 300 vs 200 and it won't be easier... With 250 vs 250 Mortum adds 3rd Necromagus and fe. Pretorians, o extra Mortum unit and it is even harder...

I don't have/play them yet, but, maybe reavers are better option to counter it ok, but there should be oportunity to counter Magisterium with every (most) subfactions, not only 2-3 in whole system, don't you think? I would love to see some nerfs there - like i wrote above or maybe some additional equipment for existing profiles (versus non-leaving/undead)...

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(This post was last modified: 02-12-2014 04:21 PM by Mnil.)
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02-12-2014 09:55 PM
Post: #16
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



Huscarl Offline
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@game size: I don´t see the Magistratum such an overwhelming force at a game level of 250 - 300 points (they are good, but not unbeatable). At this game size, the Banebrood can have some heavy hitters, appropriate support and cannon fodder.
Especially Beastspawn can easily outmanoeuvre the slow undead troops and strike with all their force on a single point in the battle line of the enemy.
For example, here a Beastspawn heavy list for 250 points:
1x Gorelord with Urghast Charm, Axe & Pick, Gauntlets of Garrond-Gar ... 66 P.
1x Fallow Shaman with Long Legs, Bulging Biceps ... 36 P.
1x 4 Gut-Hackers ... 89 P.
1x 5 Maldire Mongrels ... 59 P.

I can´t imagine that the Legio Mortum can withstand a charge of a Gorelord and a buffed unit of Gut-Hackers for long.

The real problem for Magistratum lists is, when you get a decent melee character/warlord/creature behind the enemy line; of all the factions, Banebrood (and Wyldfolk) are the most efficient user of such a tactic (Halodynes could also make use of a small unit of Amazon Hunters, get behind the lines of the Legio Mortum and shoot these pesky little spellcasters).

Please try first some bigger games out, before you judge.

@mismatches: remember that, at the moment, we have limited options for each sub-faction, so a warband composed of different sub-factions will always bring you much more flexibility.
Personally, I don´t think that only 2-3 sub-factions can work against Magistratum, but as someone, who seldom plays, I leave this point for David or other experienced gamers.
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02-12-2014 11:38 PM
Post: #17
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



Simon Offline
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Hey guys,

only a short answer due to a lack of time:

- First thing is: Ashes to ashes only targets one model with the POW 2 attack (not the whole u nit as Kevin suggested). Against Rot every model has a 33% chance to avoid the damage. In subsequent turns the unit can pay ACT to be sure they don't suffer again from the damage.

- Remember that channeling spells gives you -1 MAG.

More later....

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02-12-2014 11:40 PM
Post: #18
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



Mnil Offline
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Ehhh, i am talking about <200 formats, and not about proxies, thanks for the discussion.

Ashes to ashes is still strong enough to kill units with 5/6/8hp, in addition very easy to cast and cheap to buy. -1 MAG is not a big deal verus 2/3 MAG units...

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(This post was last modified: 02-12-2014 11:43 PM by Mnil.)
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02-13-2014 03:58 AM
Post: #19
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



David Offline
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Every few months someone comes to the board and explains their worry about how a certain warband is unbalanced. I remember we were discussing the Oracle 6 months ago, and more recently the Duskborn Chieftain. :-)

So forgive me but I do not believe there is a Problem with this Magistratum warband. I can think of a few warbands which would struggle against that formula, but there are many others which would have no problem at all.

How about a nice big unit of Hill Ogres using Circular Slash, and protected against Magic by the Oracle's Faith tactic.

I assure you that if I charge a unit of Legio Mortum with 4 buffed Hill Ogres, there will be nothing left except little bone fragments . Hill Ogres are Fearless so no fear tests required. They have POW7, so the Legio Mortum's Deadflesh will not work against them. The Ogres get to make ALL attacks before the Legio Mortum can Counter attack. Each Ogre when buffed can make 2 POW7 attacks per turn using Circular Slash (use the Syntarch's Vanguard Valor to get the extra 1 ACT needed for that Combo).

With MEL 7 from Charge Bonus / Fighting Style against DEF11, the Hill Ogres need 4+ to hit. That means each Ogre is going to be making 3-4 circular slashes X2 attacks X4 Ogres. That's easily 25 attacks at POW7.

Once the pesky skeleton unit is gone, no more Legio Mortum can be summoned because they can only be added to an existing unit.

Meanwhile all spells cast against the Ogres, the Syntarch and the Oracle fail because they all have Magic Protection.

Okay, now this is the first random warband solution that came to my mind at 01:30 in the morning with zero thinking. I am sure that with a rulebook and a couple of spare hours, I could make 15-20 more warbands which could execute this Magistratum warband with brutal efficiency.

So maybe we should instead discuss this broken, unbalanced, unfair Halodyne warband???

Sure we can, but then I can tell you 15-20 warbands that can defeat them.

So my message here is DONT PANIC. Go back to your rulebook. Check and make sure that the various rules are being used correctly, then devise a solution warband. We playtested Godslayer for almost 4000 hours. I doubt any new game on the market today got so much testing. And we have some really sharp Test-Players who removed all possible imbalance issues.

By the way, we recommend 300-350 points for a "Standard" game. When you play at this size you can use a greater selection of minis and so you then generally have a tool to fix each problem you face.
Personally I prefer 400-500 points for a great game.

Also, when you play Scenarios besides Open Battle, the game is completely altered and new strategies are possible.


As Simon noted, the Ashes to Ashes spell only targets one model with the POW2 attack, while Rot can affect further models. We will probably issue a clarification on that.
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2014 04:07 AM by David.)
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02-13-2014 11:35 AM
Post: #20
RE: Ideas about dealing with Magistratum based army...



Mnil Offline
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Still with Banebroods i have not many options to counter that, but You are right, we should stop playing small formats.

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