vs Hill Ogres tactics.
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vs Hill Ogres tactics.
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12-13-2013 11:45 PM
Post: #1
vs Hill Ogres tactics.



Capek Offline
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Hello everyone, as this is my first post.

I have a very big problem when encountering Hill Ogres.
Does anyone have a roster/tactic working against them?

I'm thinking about a concealed Obsidian Nightmare spellcasting the shit out of them or a Lighteater's haze+Feral Greyhorns combo. Or maybe 2 Skullsmasher Oakbows' bases.

Today I was tabled in round 3. of a 300point game, mostly because of them. Tongue
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2013 11:57 PM by Capek.)
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12-15-2013 12:52 PM
Post: #2
RE: vs Hill Ogres tactics.



Till Offline
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If you have Oakbows then of course the Hill Ogres are perfekt targets for them.

If not then I definitly would deny them their charge while they have Circular Slash on them. So stay away or block them with the Haze effect from the Lighteaters. If they start to walk in then they can't get very far when they still want to reserve 3 ACT for the counterattack. So chances are great you are the one who scores first victory points because he can't get his models into possition.

Either way the "Umbras Embrace" Spell is golden. It hits Hill Ogres on a 6+ and takes away 2 ACT. Worth casting twice and leave them with 1 ACT left. Then charge them with Grayhorns through the haze effect.

Even better is the Umbras Embrace Spell of course if the Hill Ogres walked into position through your Haze effect and reserved only those 3 ACT for the counter attack.

If the above doesn't work then give them only single models like the Hammerfist, or a Lighteater they can charge. They will anhihilate it but since they need 3 ACT to strike won't be able to defend themselves afterwards.

If you want to charge them the Hammerfist would be perfect. Load him up with as much ACT as possible (Twilight Salvation) and then charge one Hill Ogre on the side. In best case only one of them can strike back even with their 2" meele range. And when the Hammerfist kills one he can make a Slay Movement and therefore doesn't loose additional ACT to move to the next Hill Ogre. In addition the Hammerfist is easy to protect from the initial charge of the Hill Ogres with the Obfuscation tactic from the Obsidian Nightmare.

Charging with Units like the Grayhorns. I would only recommend if they are below 3 ACT either through Umbras Embrace or because they slaughtered the sacrificial lamb you gave them. Even without Circular Slash they put out tremendeous hurt.
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12-15-2013 01:29 PM
Post: #3
RE: vs Hill Ogres tactics.



Simon Offline
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Really good points, Till.

An effective way to get rid of them are MIS attacks, since they only have DEF 12 and average ARM (but beware of Hill Ogres boosted by the spells Arrow Protection and Seraphic Shield...).

Another proven way is to charge them with lots of cheap models (ideally if they already have spend most of their ACT, as Till already mentioned), if you have, with high DEF values (Gnolls are perfect for this task). Here you can even risk circular slash counter attacks (even when boosted by Grace of Archallon they tend to fail there first attack in most of my games, even while charging... Sad)

And to avoid a possible charge it is often wise to just engage them by walking 4-5 times and pin them, so you can charge them next round with your hard-hitting models.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing"
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12-15-2013 02:47 PM
Post: #4
RE: vs Hill Ogres tactics.



David Offline
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You mentioned already 3 good ways to deal with Hill Ogres for troglodytes:

Oakbows – Perfect! Especially when buffed by an ‘ACT from the warlord and Whiplashing from the Packlasher (then they can make 2 attacks per turn).

Lighteater's haze effect – excellent for hiding your troops and getting the charge. Of hide your Longshadows behind 1-2 haze effects, then drop the effect and blast the Hill Ogres with 8-inch MAG attacks. Works even better to place a small unit of 6 Gnolls inside the haze effect/s to prevent the Hill Ogres engaging and attacking. If they need to clear away the Gnolls first, then they will have no attacks left when they rerach your Longshadows.

Hill Ogres have average armor and below-average DEF, so although they are hard-hitting, they can be cut down quite quickly. You do not need fancy tricks to take them down, but you Need to hit them at the right time with the right tool.

1. In most cases you want to avoid them charging or engaging your UNITS because of their Circular-Slash tactic. Distract them with a single model sacrifice if necessary - like a Hammerfist or Lighteater.

2. Never engage or charge Hill Ogres with a UNIT if they have Circular Slash tactic already active and action tokens left to make counter attacks.

3. If they did not have a chance to activate Circular Slash or they already used most of their Action Tokens then Charge them with a good unit like Ironhide Brutes (preferably buffed).

4. If the unit is only 3-4 strong, use you warlord to charge them. Position him so that only one Hill Ogre is engaging your warlord, and then the unit will probably not counter attack (because the other unengaged Hill Ogres waste their attacks). Kill the first Hill Ogre, then move and kill the second. Arm the Duskborn Chieftain with Shadecrushers for the POW5 ambidextrous attack with critical knockdown). When Counter-attacking a single warlord with one unit model, you rob them of their advantage - causing mass casualties.

5. As above but using the Obsidian Nightmare with Gloomworm Tail to cause blindness on Hill Ogre he hits. Your warlords will be hitting on a 3+ or 4+. Use your Nightmare to wound the first Ogre, then wound the next, then the next. All Blinded Hill Ogres will then probably need 10's to hit your warlord assuming you equip him with the Blackfire Helm.
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04-01-2014 12:39 PM
Post: #5
RE: vs Hill Ogres tactics.



Mnil Offline
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Imo Lighteater with Obsydian Nightmare and Longshadows are good answer to them Wink

David Wrote:All Blinded Hill Ogres will then probably need 10's to hit your warlord assuming you equip him with the Blackfire Helm.

The point here is that ON has no acces to Armor Items. It's strange, because He wears armor, you missed it pruposely?

In addition i want to ask about his price:
How have You evaluated him? Why He is that expensive?

Compare with other warlords he is not good fighter, nore good wizard...

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(This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 12:43 PM by Mnil.)
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04-01-2014 04:13 PM
Post: #6
RE: vs Hill Ogres tactics.



David Offline
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The Obsidian Nightmare had access to armor items during a lot of our playtesting but it was possible to build item combos that were totally broken, so we had to remove the armor option and leave only Talismans.

The model does have armor on it, and that is reflected by his ARM stat of 7.

The Points of the Obsidian Nightmare are quite high because of the difficulty to kill him- ARM 7 is average, normal ARM, and combined with that he takes half damage from most models in the game due to his Ethereal ability. In addition to that, he has 18 lifepoints, so that means effectively 36 LPs against most enemy models due to half damage. At the start of every round he can regain D3 lifepoints for free - basically a free healing spell. He also can go into concealment, and can take Talismans - for example the Mask of Dusk makes him immune to Missile, MAG and spell attacks.

This guy is very difficult to kill.

The only thing he needs to be careful of is an enemy melee warlord.

Even with all that, he is still 4 Points cheaper than the duskborn Chieftain.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 04:15 PM by David.)
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04-01-2014 07:39 PM
Post: #7
RE: vs Hill Ogres tactics.



Mnil Offline
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Yes, he is hard to kill for most, but if the main idea of Godslayer is to be tough or to fight, command and kill cost-efficient?
He has weak weapons, one expensive tactic and poor (but costly) spells (look magistratum, temple, or wyldfolk, even mutations are much more cost-efficient)

Duskborn Chieftain is much better commander, and great fighter, with basic items he costs only about 10-15 points more than ON.

He can get 10 arm and 21 HP, so it makes him pretty equal in "survival".
I don;t have to compare their tactics, it's obvious who has better ones.
He can be even commander of Shadow Trolls with amulet...
And he has also d3 HP reg per activation...

I want to ask why should I put ON in my army for ridiculous cost, while 5 Troglo's players i know - even with Longshadows/Ligheaters - always take Trolloth Commander...

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(This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 07:41 PM by Mnil.)
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04-01-2014 10:29 PM
Post: #8
RE: vs Hill Ogres tactics.



Huscarl Offline
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Well, I wouldn`t say that each weapon option is weak, they are rather costly, but against certain warbands not bad. E.g. 2D3 direct damage can be nice against heavily armoured troops like the Legionnaires or Carnifexers.


Concerning the Tactics, you`re right, the tactic of the Nightmare isn`t that good (if I want some more protection against missile fire, I would go with 2 Lighteaters).

Concerning the spells, I wouldn`t say that all of them such a bad choice, especially Twilight Salvation or Umbra`s Embrace can be quite good (and if I`m not wrong, you can cast Umbra`s Embrace several times on a unit/model). Or take Discarnate: If cast on a big Reaver Runts unit, it can make these little buggers much more resilient. Or make your heavy hitters more resilient, e.g. the Fleshpounder.
Spells like Moonstone Comet are a bit over-priced in comparison to the spells of other factions.

And the Wyldfolk has no spellcaster warlord, they have the druid, a character. So the comparison, which you made, is a bit flawed.

I think the problem is that the Nightmare tries to be a mixture of melee fighter and spellcaster, and so the Duskborn Chieftain seems to be more attractive due to his focus only on melee and his good tactics.
He is also the only spellcaster of the Trogs with access to the Rites Spell Sets; most other factions have cheap characters with different spell options to buff their troops/or even the option of channeling spells, which makes the spellcasters much more dangerous.
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04-01-2014 10:44 PM
Post: #9
RE: vs Hill Ogres tactics.



Mnil Offline
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Exactly, simple cheap Druid or Priestess can cast better nad cheaper spells than "Powerful" Shade Warlord from the afterlife Wink

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(This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 10:44 PM by Mnil.)
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04-02-2014 01:26 AM
Post: #10
RE: vs Hill Ogres tactics.



David Offline
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What you pay for I can sum up in one word - versatility

He is not great in melee but still decent with MEL7 and 3 reasonable weapons. He is also a spell-caster who can even cast spells while engaged, besides that he can move 5 times per turn and is very difficult to kill. And of course he gives Shadow Trolls their subfaction ability.

Wave-2 will include additional spells and probably additional weapons which will also likely be available to him.
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