Problems getting most out of Trolloth
Megalith Games - Official Forums


Post Reply 
Problems getting most out of Trolloth
Author Message
11-04-2013 12:34 AM
Post: #1
Problems getting most out of Trolloth



David Offline
Administrator
*******

Posts: 1,216
Joined: Jun 2012
I have been having a conversation by email with one Player about his Problems winning with Trogs, so I decided to post it here because it may be helpful to other Players.

Here first is the original email:


Hi David,

We have played last Friday our first 200 points battle. But something concerns me (I have played many battle games),warbands with greater numbers and armies that charge faster are more powerful than a rolloth, even with their more wounds, with that said I have couple ideas.

Character for the Ironhide Brutes, a couple tactics that increase their melee and survival capacity, first a defense tactic, I was thinking about Unyielding: target friendly unit, the unit gains +1 defense, enemy models do not receive fighting style or charge bonus, it’s a minor buff but gives them more meat shield utility.

Second tactic would be a melee tactic, Frenzy, unit must charge the nearest enemy unit/model, but gains +1 POW +1 Strike Rank. I have notice that counter attacks can be dangerous vs medium bases with this you can try to kill a couple before the heavy retaliation. With these to tactics, this unit will shine more.

After seeing Thor 2, there is race that would be suited as mastermind of Troglodytes, the sinister Shadow Elves born and raised in shadows.
The idea behind this race is, you can give Troglodytes something new, instead of a beefy race you get an agile race and there is nothing more fun than a faction with different races. This would give them access to elite archers or elite swordsmen that understand the shadow weapons better than their trollkins.

Somewhere on the forum I have read that they get an assassin, a sinister Shadow Elf would look cooler than a troll, would be even cooler if it was a warlord, with some sneaky tactics. Like Shadow Walker target unit gains light infantry or light cavalry rule.

Character Shadow Elf mage that gives the Long Shadows access to a couple new spells only if you field him, that are cheap and has to do with buffing their weapons (their POW is so unpredictable), and increasing their defense stats (at the price of no counter attacks. The mage himself is pretty strong with magic and in melee, he may carry 2 spells and a talisman and a shadow weapon (mini warlord).

I hope my message is clear sending a so long message on a not so smartphone is difficult, thanks for reading and I hope my ideas hit the playtest table.

Best regards,
Cronix
We have played the demo battle at Spiel, you know the group of 5 Wink.
It was nice to meet you guys, and I am really glad to already started playing.

We have played last Friday our first 200 points battle. But something concerns me (I have played many battle games), the strength in number and armies that charge faster are more powerful than a couple more wounds, with that said I have couple ideas.
If you explain the problem you are facing, then I can tell you how to win against it. There is always a way to win or at least get a draw.

The game system and every model was play-tested for 4 years, with about 4,000 hours of play-testing, so I can assure you that the factions are balanced. With the starter boxes, the balance is more difficult, because there are only a few models and very few options. (For example Wyldfolk starter box struggles against Mortans starter box in a standard battle scenario).
1) Even the starter-boxes were found to be very balanced when playing with different scenarios, because it forces both sides to act differently than standard battle.
2) When you have a warband with more miniatures than the starter-boxes, then you have a huge selection of units, characters, creatures and warlords, so you can create different strategies. So I can guarantee you that the factions are really well balanced. Standard game size is 300 – 350 points. The more points you play, the more balanced the game is.
3) Partly it is a matter of finding the right strategy. I can win with any starter box against any other starter-box because I know the advantages and disadvantages of all models.



Character for the Ironhide Brutes, a couple tactics that increase their melee and survival capacity, first a defense tactic, I was thinking about Unyielding: target friendly unit, the unit gains +1 defense, enemy models do not receive fighting style or charge bonus, it’s a minor buff but gives them more meat shield utility.
• That’s a good tactic. We can bring that in Wave-2. Very good idea! Maybe we also make a spell or tactic to increase armor by +1, but we do not want them to be super defensive, we already have a faction like that - the Mortans.
• Keep in mind that tactic Slam Back. The Duskborn Chieftain can order this to your units. It can be a useful defensive tactic.
• Additionally, the Trolloth models all have very high Life-points and they can regenerate D3 LPs every turn with their sub-faction ability.


Second tactic would be a melee tactic, Frenzy, unit must charge the nearest enemy unit/model, but gains +1 POW +1 Strike Rank. I have notice that counter attacks can be dangerous vs medium bases with this you can try to kill a couple before the heavy retaliation. With these to tactics, this unit will shine more.
• Another offensive tactic for the Trolloth is not really so urgent. Remember that the Duskborn Chieftain can order all of his tactics to your units of Ironhide Brutes.
• Look at the tactics of the Duskborn Chieftain. He has “Rage” which gives +1 on melee attacks, so with fighting-style bonus, you can get a MEL of 7.
• But even better, the Chieftain has the tactic “Carnage”. Carnage is one of the most powerful offensive tactics in the game!!! With this, you can give every model in the unit “Slay Movement” = D3 inches free movement plus a free attack! So imagine you order Carnage to a unit of 5 Ironhide Brutes. That means you get 5X movement actions and 5X a free attack. That is effectively equal to 15 free action tokens! And it only costs one action-token to order the tactic. It is an amazing offensive tactic.
• Ironhide Brutes also ignore shields! Against Halodynes and Mortans, this is a +3 bonus!!! (because you cancel the +2 Def and +1 ARM). Against most other models like Fjell Warriors and Kinswords, that means a +2 bonus (cancelling +1 Def and +1 ARM).
• IF you are having problems getting to charge, then use the Eclipse tactic of the Lighteater to block the line of sight to your units. This haze effect can be really useful. Or you can use your Hammerfist as a sacrifice to get the enemy to charge him. you place your Ironhide Brutes 8 inches behind, then you charge the enemy. If the ignore the Hammerfist, then you use him to charge the enemy and knock them down with his Rumble tactic.


After seeing Thor 2, there is race that would be suited as mastermind of Troglodytes, the sinister Shadow Elves born and raised in shadows.
The idea behind this race is, you can give Troglodytes something new, instead of a beefy race you get an agile race and there is nothing more fun than a faction with different races. This would give them access to elite archers or elite swordsmen that understand the shadow weapons better than their trollkins.
Yes we will try to achieve that with the Shadow Trolls. The Gnoll Oakbows are also pretty good missile troops which your Trolloth can use.

Somewhere on the forum I have read that they get an assassin, a sinister Shadow Elf would look cooler than a troll, would be even cooler if it was a warlord, with some sneaky tactics.
Yes a Shadow Troll assassin is planned and will surely have some sneaky tactics. We have something much cooler planned for the warlord.
You should also look at the Grondah Filthling has “Insidious” and “Sneaky Charge” tactics, which can also be used on Trolloth. You could consider taking a Filthling as your warlord. When you play 500 points, you could have Chieftain as your warband leader, plus a Filthling. It’s cool playing with two warlords.


Like Shadow Walker target unit gains light infantry or light cavalry rule.
Fine for Shadow Trolls subfaction models, but would be quite weird if that also works on Trolloth. We do not want to make every faction equally good at everything. If we give Trolloth awesome speed, sneaky tactics and great maneuverability, then what advantage does the Wyldfolk have??? Then Wyldfolk all want to have hard units with lots of life points and regeneration….then every faction becomes the same.
Have you considered switching to Wyldfolk faction? Most complaints you have about Troglodytes is the opposite in the Wyldfolk; for example the Bard can make units light infantry, they have fast movement, awesome shooting, sneaky tactics like activating 3 cards in a turn, and models in hidden deployment…..maybe you are playing a faction that does not fit your preferred style of play?



Character Shadow Elf mage that gives the Long Shadows access to a couple new spells only if you field him, that are cheap and has to do with buffing their weapons (their POW is so unpredictable), and increasing their defense stats (at the price of no counter attacks. The mage himself is pretty strong with magic and in melee, he may carry 2 spells and a talisman and a shadow weapon (mini warlord).
Shadow Elves does not fit so well to the Troglodytes, but we have a separate faction which will be like this – Stygians. They will be the first new faction to be released. they are the followers of Darkness. They will have Medusas (a little like darkness elves), gorgons and Naga snake people, plus lots of darkness creatures.

I hope my message is clear sending a so long message on a not so smartphone is difficult, thanks for reading and I hope my ideas hit the playtest table.
Yes, maybe some of them will.
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.
Let me know if you need any advice on how to win with Trogs.
Raoul on the Forum is also an expert Trogs player.

Trolloth subfaction is intended to be a meaty warband with good armor and weapons with a good POW. It is not intended that they will be fast or sneaky or shooty or have a lot of magic. They should be half-way between banebrood offensiveneess, and Mortan defensiveness. Additionally they have some faster models with many attacks which are also more squishy - Feral Trolls. Wave-2 will bring elite professional soldier Trolloth and Trolloth cavalry. Trolloth are a pure, simple "fighty" subfaction, and because of this, the player should be really expert in the best tricks of melee fighting in Godslayer. We have a series of articles which will come soon to the website. One of them is really applicable to Trolloth because it is covering all the best tricks to best use melee.

Regards,
David



reply from Cronix:

Hi David,

First off, thanks for the time and the feedback, I realy like the game it has many game systems that our game group plays.

After reading all the scenarios it will balance the army, we played the first one (headsmashing, maybe it's not the best scenario for this faction or 200 points battle format).

What concerns me when facing armies with access to 6+ model units is that, when they get the charge they fight 2 vs 1 or counter attack 2 vs 1 when Trogs charge. Counter attacks are dangerous with such low melee value (or can we use fighting styles when making counter attacks?)

Broods have such fast alpha strike, light infantry + subfaction bonus makes them very difficult to read. Haze can interfere with their LOS, but how can you handle multiple of these fast guys?

Gnolls look fantastic on paper, I am curious how these annoying critters will look like. They will give more bodies, and access to speed and sneaky gimmicks. So when will see these critters Smile.

Question time Smile
About the Long Shadows, may they cast the same spell against the same target multiple times?

I was thinking about the Obsidian Nightmare (midnight blessing, discarnate) + Fleshpounder, how does this spell interact with bonecrusher? How I read it direct damage is not effected by the side effect of the spell or am I missing something?

Thanks for feedback, I am realy looking forward to see wave 2 and the new model previews.

Best regards,
Cronix


First off, thanks for the time and the feedback, I realy like the game it has many game systems that our game group plays.

Actually I love playing Godslayer, and my second favourite thing is discussing Godslayer, so I am very happy to talk for hours with you :-)

After reading all the scenarios it will balance the army, we played the first one (headsmashing, maybe it's not the best scenario for this faction or 200 points battle format).

Yes, that is true, open battle with low-points warbands is the most critical challenge for the balance of the game. At the end of play-testing, we tested each starter box against each other starter box in open-battle scenario, and we found that some matches were really more challenging than others, but with all of them it was possible to definitely score a draw when the player ability was equal. When one player uses better strategy or has better guess with ranges, then it is definitely possible for any starter warband to win against any other starter warband. Luck also plays more role in smaller games. With bigger games, it usually balances out. This is why we recommend 300+ for the standard game.

What concerns me when facing armies with access to 6+ model units is that, when they get the charge they fight 2 vs 1 or counter attack 2 vs 1 when Trogs charge. Counter attacks are dangerous with such low melee value (or can we use fighting styles when making counter attacks?)

Yes, this is the problem Trolloth face.

-Placement: Firstly this should never be an issue when you charge, because you get to place your models wherever you want. So you can concentrate your force at one end of a phalanx (if they are arranged in a line). Against models with 1-inch melee range, its really not a problem at all because you can easily place your models so your guys are concentrating 5 against 6 or 7. It’s a good idea to have more than 5 vs. 5, because quite often, you will kill some enemies with the first attack. So careful placement of your models when you charge or engage can save you from suffering 20 counter-attacks.

-Staying Power: You will notice that Ironhide Brutes are not double the cost of the regular infantry (like Bladeslingers and Hoplites etc). They only cost 15 points, so for 3 Kinswords, you can get 2 Brutes. that’s still 6 attacks against your 4 attacks, but you still have double the life points, plus regeneration, so normally they will need almost 2X longer to kill one of your models than you need to kill one of their models. this means that you have several rounds of additional attacks. for example 3 Kinswords attack your 2 Brutes. Round 1 they do 4 points damage to one brute and 8 points damage to another brute. In your attacks you kill one of the Kinswords. that means in round 2, you have 4 attacks still against their 4 attacks. So in the end it generally balances out.

- Rotation: When one of your Brutes get down below 5 LPs, then try to maneuver so there are less models attacking him. Use your freshest guys to take the pounding. Then after 1-2 rounds he will have healed 2-6 LPs with regeneration and you can then use him to cover for the most wounded guys. this requires that your warlord gives them 1 ACT each round so that they can use it for movement (otherwise they will not be able to make 2 attacks). Keep in mind, you can move any of your models during melee assuming you do not move out of engagement with any opposing model. By moving your Brute as far as possible (but remaining within engagement range, and then coming into the gap with one of your other Brutes, you can effectively protect that guy by blocking. This works even better with Gnolls, because they have small bases. Using a Gnoll unit, mixed in with a Brutes unit is a very sneaky and effective trick! Basically you keep the two units together and use the Gnolls to block the enemy and protect your Brutes which have lowest life-points, so they have a chance to heal.

-Take more troops: you don’t need to take 1 Brute to face 2 enemy models. Because Brutes are only 15 points, you can always be 2 against 3, not 2 against 4. And take some Reaver Runts too. Remember that Your Brutes can walk over the Gnolls if they get in the way (because of their ability Squishy). So the Gnolls block your Trolloth being attacked, but you can step on the Gnolls and attack the enemy! Another built-in synergy of the Troglodytes.

Of course when you face enemy elite units, then the numbers are not a problem. Maybe you have the advantage in numbers then (for example against Einherjer, Sons of War, Cromlech Guard etc).

You cannot use fighting styles while counter-attacking. With Brutes it is normally best not to counter-attack during the first attack. Wait and see how much damage they suffer. then maybe counter-attack the second attack if it looks like you will lose a model. At least then you still have 2 ACT for making an attack in your own activation, then you can use fighting styles for that attack.

Always use Offensive style to gain +1 to hit.

Always buff your Trolloth with Rage or Carnage or Slam Back.

Always give them +1 ACT from the warlord.


Banebrood have such fast alpha strike, light infantry + subfaction bonus makes them very difficult to read. Haze can interfere with their LOS, but how can you handle multiple of these fast guys?

Against super fast enemies:

-You can use 2 Haze effects if you have two Lighteaters. They have a 5-inch AOE, and if you place hem about 3-5 inches apart, you basically cut down the line of sight because of the angle, so only 1-2 enemy models can see. then they are very unlikely to charge. you can then effectively cover a frontage of 13-15 inches!

-If you have Feral Grayhorns, you can then activate them to charge the enemy through the Eclipse AOEs, because they do not need line-of-sight to charge due to their Scent ability. This is another built-in synergy of the faction. With the Filthling warlord’s “Insidious” tactic, you can even move the Grayhorns once, and then charge! I bet the Banebrood with Long-Legs are not expecting that! He, he he!

-Hit them with magic and missile weapons. Oakbows have a POW of 5! They are basically little war-machines! Noxal Rites spellset has 3 damage-causing spells.

-Do not offer your entire warband as a sacrifice. Place a sacrifice model or unit of 3 Brutes in front and let them charge that, then with your other guys, you then charge the Banebrood who charged your sacrifice. Of course this is only workable in a warband of 300+ points.



Question time Smile
About the Long Shadows, may they cast the same spell against the same target multiple times?

Yes, there is no limitation with spells, but many spells are not stacking. However, for damage causing spells, that’s no problem; you can attack the same enemy models again and again.

I was thinking about the Obsidian Nightmare (midnight blessing, discarnate) + Fleshpounder, how does this spell interact with bonecrusher? How I read it direct damage is not effected by the side effect of the spell or am I missing something?

the spell says “damage” so that can be any damage. so you need to halve the direct damage too. That is a really sneaky thing to do! You are truly evil! :-)

Thanks for feedback, I am realy looking forward to see wave 2 and the new model previews.

In the meantime, there is lots of strategic possibilities with the models in Wave-1. We designed the faction so that it is completely playable with all the models in Wave-1, and does not require models from Wave-2 to be competitive. There are many more synergies and strategies for you to discover and master.


I hope that helps.

regards, David
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2013 01:14 AM by David.)
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
11-04-2013 10:39 AM
Post: #2
RE: Problems getting most out of Trolloth



joysan Offline
Junior Member
**

Posts: 42
Joined: Oct 2013
as already told... troglodyte army are usually solid but composed by few models (unless you decide to use gnolls), surely, when using an army with few models, we need a great strategy to move them, then, regeneration and ethereal power, help us to resist a bit more, the powerfull weapon instead with their abilities make trolloth, but also shadow troll, very Dangerous, ignoring shiedl weapons, direct damage Attacks, d6 pow weapons, may kill a lot of enemy with a single hit. other enemy instead need surely more hit to kill our models.

reading the background then, i seen there will be more and more creatures, probably for all factions, surely new nice options will come with a lot of surprises and diabolics tricks XD
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
11-04-2013 11:57 AM
Post: #3
RE: Problems getting most out of Trolloth



Raoul Offline
Super Moderator
******

Posts: 1,317
Joined: Jun 2012
After David covered this in depth and length, I try a laconic variant:
Just play on, learn, master the Trogs, and it will pay out. After months of playing them, I often enough have little problems crushing anything in the way of the great balancer shadow. Smile

Smashing empires of man is a moral duty
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
11-04-2013 07:33 PM
Post: #4
RE: Problems getting most out of Trolloth



joysan Offline
Junior Member
**

Posts: 42
Joined: Oct 2013
reading again this post i found that...

Quote:write by david:
- Rotation: When one of your Brutes get down below 5 LPs, then try to maneuver so there are less models attacking him. Use your freshest guys to take the pounding. Then after 1-2 rounds he will have healed 2-6 LPs with regeneration and you can then use him to cover for the most wounded guys. this requires that your warlord gives them 1 ACT each round so that they can use it for movement (otherwise they will not be able to make 2 attacks). Keep in mind, you can move any of your models during melee assuming you do not move out of engagement with any opposing model. By moving your Brute as far as possible (but remaining within engagement range, and then coming into the gap with one of your other Brutes, you can effectively protect that guy by blocking. This works even better with Gnolls, because they have small bases. Using a Gnoll unit, mixed in with a Brutes unit is a very sneaky and effective trick! Basically you keep the two units together and use the Gnolls to block the enemy and protect your Brutes which have lowest life-points, so they have a chance to heal.

and so now i have a question... when my models are engaging models from another unit... i can move one of them, actually engaged by 2 enemy, to be engaged with one only, without take the free attack from the one i leave? or the rotation is intended between two differents charge/combat?
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2013 07:34 PM by joysan.)
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2013 12:18 PM
Post: #5
RE: Problems getting most out of Trolloth



Necrotix Offline
Newbie
*

Posts: 23
Joined: Mar 2013
As much as I love my Trogs as my primary faction, reading this thread has done one thing! Totally sold me on getting the Stygians!
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
11-08-2013 09:58 PM
Post: #6
RE: Problems getting most out of Trolloth



David Offline
Administrator
*******

Posts: 1,216
Joined: Jun 2012
(11-04-2013 07:33 PM)joysan Wrote:  reading again this post i found that...

Quote:write by david:
- Rotation: When one of your Brutes get down below 5 LPs, then try to maneuver so there are less models attacking him. Use your freshest guys to take the pounding. Then after 1-2 rounds he will have healed 2-6 LPs with regeneration and you can then use him to cover for the most wounded guys. this requires that your warlord gives them 1 ACT each round so that they can use it for movement (otherwise they will not be able to make 2 attacks). Keep in mind, you can move any of your models during melee assuming you do not move out of engagement with any opposing model. By moving your Brute as far as possible (but remaining within engagement range, and then coming into the gap with one of your other Brutes, you can effectively protect that guy by blocking. This works even better with Gnolls, because they have small bases. Using a Gnoll unit, mixed in with a Brutes unit is a very sneaky and effective trick! Basically you keep the two units together and use the Gnolls to block the enemy and protect your Brutes which have lowest life-points, so they have a chance to heal.

and so now i have a question... when my models are engaging models from another unit... i can move one of them, actually engaged by 2 enemy, to be engaged with one only, without take the free attack from the one i leave? or the rotation is intended between two differents charge/combat?


Unfortunately not - you cannot leave engagement of one model just because you are engaged by another.

If you move out of the melee range of any model engaging you, that model can make a free strike.

Nevertheless, is is often possible to shuffle a little bit - to move one very wounded guy a bit further back and move other fresh guys in, especially with Gnolls with their smaller bases.
This is particularly easy when the enemy is 2-inches away because they are using spears etc with RNG2 weapons.

The best opprtunity to use this "Rotation" tactic is when enemies have died and left your very wounded model unengaged, then you can move him to the back for a while with no restrictions.

Because the enemy often have less ifepoints, it is really quite common to find yourself in this situation! And when you do, you should make the most of it.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2013 09:58 PM by David.)
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
08-17-2014 01:49 PM
Post: #7
RE: Problems getting most out of Trolloth



Ennoia Offline
Newbie
*

Posts: 6
Joined: Nov 2013
Hi, as a novice trogs player, I have a question. In one post above David mentioned some articles about strategy in melee fighting. Can anyone provide a link to it? Cause I can't find it at all.
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
08-20-2014 02:32 AM
Post: #8
RE: Problems getting most out of Trolloth



David Offline
Administrator
*******

Posts: 1,216
Joined: Jun 2012
Godslayer Scrolls of Victory
A Series of Articles on Tactics and Strategy


Charges and Melee

PART 1

This is the second in a series of articles discussing the strategy and tactics of Godslayer, designed to provide new players with tips for getting the most fun out of the game and how to gain victory.

In this second article we will discuss bloody business of engaging, charges and melee. This article should offer both experienced players and beginners some useful tips.

As with all these articles we will assume that readers are at least familiar with the quick-start rules and have played a couple of games but occasionally we might refer to parts of the regular core rules since the core rules are the standard rules for playing Godslayer.


Charges
In the first article we discussed general strategy and order of activations. Now let’s talk about the second most fundamental part of the game – melee, since melee combat is really the meat and potatoes of the game. There are several factors to consider in order to get the most out of your charges and your melee attacks and the first one is charging. Although you can move your models into melee range through normal movement actions and then make attacks against enemy models, by far the best way of getting into melee is through a Charge action.

The first rule of charging is: it is better to charge than to be charged!

Charging gives you free movement of 2X your MOV +2 inches. It also gives you a bonus of +1 MEL and +1 POW on your chargers attacks for the whole round! So charging really makes sense in almost every case! Keep in mind that charges must take place in a straight line and require line of sight from charging model to target model. And remember, unit models declare their charge targets individually, and it is only necessary for one of them to successfully reach the enemy for the whole unit to count as having a successful charge. So if one or two of your unit models has a wall in the way and cannot charge – no problem, charge with the rest of the unit and simply move them along with their buddies.

Also keep in mind that models can charge over difficult terrain. This will cut your movement in half, but sometimes you will have enough movement anyway, especially with light infantry or models with MOV4.

Of course, to charge, you need to be within range. That means accurate guessing distance. If you want to be good at guessing charge ranges and ranges in general, you need to practice. Get two models, put them on the table then guess the range. Then measure it. Do that for a couple of hours and you will be damn good at estimating. It is best to be certain you can make it if you make a charge because a failed charge is a nightmare – your activation ends and your chargers basically committed strategic suicide.

Bear in mind that in addition to your charge movement, you also have your MEL range. For most models MEL range is one inch, but for some it can be two inches. So you do not need to get into base contact, only into MEL-range.


Model Placement
If you are able to engage multiple enemy units/models, then it usually makes sense to do so. This will prevent those engaged models/units from charging you.

Apart from that, where you place your models should be based on: A) melee range of your models’ weapons and B) how good they are in melee.

If your models have range-2 weapons such as spears, and the enemy has range-1 weapons such as axes, then definitely place your models more than one inch away from any enemy models, but closer than two inches. In this way your troops can attack but the opponent’s models cannot make counter-attacks.

How good your models are in melee should determine how you group your guys. For example, Reaver Tribesmen have a poor melee skill of 5, which is the level of militia-type troops) and average POW of 4, so you should try to get at least two Reaver Tribesmen into melee range of a single enemy model. They need to gang-up on the enemy. Remember – dead enemies cannot attack you later in the round! So try to kill enemy models fast. It is much better to fully kill 5 models than to half-kill 10 models because that is 5 models who will not be making counter attacks later on. For example, if your unit of 10 Reaver Tribesmen charges a unit of 8 legionnaires, then try to place your 10 guys so they are attacking 5 Legionnaires. This means only 5 legionnaires can counter-attack, lessening your potential losses.

Conversely, if you are charging weak enemy models with your elites (high-point models) or even elites that have been buffed, then you want to space your models a little more widely to cause maximum casualties. It is entirely possible that they will kill a low-point enemy model with a single attack if you have good rolls and they are buffed, so they should probably have two enemy models in range. I prefer to place two of my elites in range of 3 enemy models, not more than that, because there is still the matter of counter-attacks from those models. Putting one of your elites in melee range with four or five enemy models means certain death for your model when the enemy counter attacks.

For example, my unit of 3 Eainherjer charges a unit of 8 Legionnaires. In this case I would place my models so they are in melee range of 6 legionnaires and so that each of my Einherjer has two possible models to attack

In some cases it makes sense to go all-out and get your troops in melee range with as many enemies as possible! This is especially important when you have attacks that hit multiple enemies with a single action such as the Hill Ogres’ Circular Slash tactic. A perfect example of this is the Fjellgangr’s Thrash attack in which he makes an attack on ALL models within 2 inches! So it makes sense to get him in melee range with as many enemy models as possible (and away from your own troops since he will hit them too!). The same is true for models with Strike-Rank-2 such as the Sons of War since the enemy cannot make counter attacks until after all their first round of attacks are performed e.g. one attack of each son of war – remove casualties – counter attacks of surviving enemies – etc...

So the second rule of charging is: Place your chargers as advantageously as possible.

Remember that if a unit you are charging has not activated yet, then it will almost certainly be able to make counter-attacks every time you make an attack. Naturally it is better to charge units which have already spent their action tokens, but even target units which have full action tokens are worth charging if your unit or model is approximately equal to or better than the opposing unit. It is even better to charge with a potentially weaker unit than to allow them to be charged instead... remember the +1/+1 bonus, and the enemy is not allowed to chose a fighting style, so effectively loses a +1 bonus.



When not to Charge
Although charging is usually an advantageous action to perform, there are times when it’s better not to rush headlong into the bloody crucible of combat.

A) If the opposing unit is much better (for example where each model has double the points of yours, then the charge is likely to end badly for your guys. Some charges can leave the charging unit in the midst of the enemy’s battle-line, where it can be charged and/or engaged by several other units while your other units might not be in range to support them. Nevertheless, sometimes there are no better options and it is still preferable to charge than to be charged! But on the whole, try to avoid suicidal charges unless it contributes to your game strategy. Even desperate charges can have some beneficial effect if you make the most out of it by buffing your chargers and placing them advantageously (as described in the previous section). There are actually no units that have zero chances against any other unit, no matter how many points they are worth...even a unit of Gnolls can take out some ogres.

A) Never charge your warlord into a unit without support from some of your troops, unless he is a melee warlord* and even then, you should be careful to place him so that he is engaging only one or two models.

You definitely do not want to place your warlord in melee range of 5 enemy models which will each be counter-attacking every time your warlord makes a single attack. Better to place him in melee range with one model of the enemy unit if they are elites, or two enemy models if they are mediocre/poor troops.

The above principle holds true for Characters and Creatures too – especially less powerful creatures.

B) Missile troops should shoot not fight. This means troops whose MIS value is higher than their MEL value. Unless they are backed into a corner and are certain to be charged, you will have better chances to hit by shooting. Missile troops generally have low ARM and are therefore very squishy in melee.

Models like Bladeslingers, Beasthunter and Bloodgut Ravager can act as missile troops but are actually more effective in melee, so this does not apply to them.

Similarly, spell-casters should be casting spells not fighting. Even spell-casters who have good armor and the Battle-Caster ability (allowing them to cast spells while engaged) should spend their action tokens on casting spells whenever possible.

C) Special Cases
•Try not to charge ethereal models into melee against models that have enchanted attacks or MAG attacks, since you will squander your primary advantage – your ethereal ability.
•Try not to charge expensive elites with high armor against models that have MAG attacks or direct-damage attacks because you may not break-even in points lost vs. kill-points gained since you lose your advantage of great armor.
•If possible avoid charging your low-POW models against enemies with high ARM. If you have no other option, then try to buff your chargers beforehand.
•Charging models who have low-LEAD against horror-causing models or those which require a successful LEAD test in order to attack them is a foregone catastrophe.

The third rule of charging then would be: don’t make foolhardy charges



Engaging Without Charging
So clearly it makes sense to charge under most circumstances, but even in cases where you cannot make a charge, it sometimes still makes sense to move up to the enemy and engage them. Whereas a charge represents a sudden, fast, direct movement towards the enemy whereby the charging models gain momentum and determination, engaging by movement represents something less dramatic with less impetus.

When Engaging without Charging Makes Sense:
A) When the enemy is outside of your charge range but your troops are still inside their charge range. For example: a unit of Amazons is standing 10 inches away from your Skannfyrd Kinswords. Your charge range is only 8 inches +1 inch MEL-range, while the Amazons have a 14-inch charge range. So you move your Kinswords three times and engage them with your MEL-range of one inch. Even if the Amazons are in charge range, it is often better just to engage them due to their sub-faction ability which allows them D3 inches free movement when charged.

Even if the enemy cannot charge now, and you cannot charge them, you can still engage and bind the unit and thereby prevent another unit of yours being charged. Example: you want to charge a unit of Hoplites with your Einherjer. The Hoplites are flanked by a unit of Hill Ogres, just out of the charge range of all your models. So it makes sense to engage the Ogres first with your Fjell Warriors, so they can't charge your Einherjer after they smash into the Hoplites)

B) When an enemy model represents a juicy target but is out of range. For example: the opponent’s warlord or a character. How attractive a charge it is depends largely on the relative points values. So an Oracle or Farfarer within engagement range of your three Skulleaters would be a delicious charge, while it would make little sense engaging a Duskborn Chieftain with your Bard.

C) When a target is worth engaging but cannot be charged due to obstacles or forest preventing charge movement.

For example, there is a Necromagus out in the open, and a Valkyrie cannot charge him because there is a patch of forest in the way blocking line of sight. The Necromagus is worth plenty of points and taking him out would severely deflate the effectiveness of the opponent’s Legio Mortum units. The Nordgaard player has his warlord assign the Valkyrie an action token so that she has 6 ACT at the start of her activation. She moves twice around the edge of the forest (8 inches) until she is engaging the Necromagus with her 2-inch MEL range. Now the Valkyrie can still make two attacks since she still has 4 ACT left. Although she does not get the charge bonus, she can still chose a fighting style.
Example 2: You have a unit of Ironhide Brutes who already have the ordered tactic carnage active and have received an action token from the warlord. You were planning to charge a unit of Fjell Warriors but the Fjell Warriors already fled, and the next reasonable target for your Brutes is a unit of Fimbul Toughborns who are approximately 10 inches away which is beyond their charge range of 8 inches. Therefore you move your Brutes 3 times (9 inches), and with their 1 inch melee range, most of the Toughborns are within your melee range. Now you are still able to make one attack with a fighting style. It’s certainly not as good as if you had been able to charge and make two attacks with charge bonus, but a lot better than nothing.

D) When the enemy models are within charge range but there is no line of sight due to buildings. For example, in an urban street-fight among the ruins of an ancient city there are 5 Reaver Runts around the corner from your two Hill Ogres. They are only 6 inches away but you have no line of sight through the wall.
.

The Dilema
So even when your model/unit does not have enough action tokens left over to make an attack after engaging, it can still be worthwhile engaging the enemy. If you are in a position where your model/unit is about to be charged, you need to weigh-up the two options – if you stay put, you will have action tokens left to make counter-attacks, but if you engage the enemy, you can deny them their charge bonus.

For example your unit of Fjell Warriors has a charge range of 6 inches and they are under imminent threat of being charged by a unit of 5 Gut-Hackers. That will surely spell the end for your Dwarves. The Gut-Hackers are 9 inches away, which means they can charge you with their 10-inch charge range but you cannot possible reach them with your stumpy little legs. Fortunately the next turn is yours, so you activate your Fjell Warriors and move them four times (8 inches) and engage the Gut-Hackers. Then you activate Shield Wall on your Fjell Warriors. Next you activate your Warlord (Runegate Keeper) and he buffs your Fjell Warriors with the tactic Fortify, giving them +1 ARM. Together with their Shield-Wall tactic which gives them +1 DEF and +1 ARM, they now DEF13 and ARM10. Although they cannot make any attacks because their action tokens are all spent, the Fjell Warriors have prevented the Gut-Hackers from gaining a charge bonus and also prepared themselves against the attacks of the Gut-Hackers. In most cases Dwarves can only react to the enemy because of their ponderous speed, but in this way the Nordgaard player has stolen the initiative from the speedy Banebrood.

For maximum sneakiness, when you move the Fjell Warriors to engage the Gut-Hackers, place them so that only one Toughborn is engaging the Gut-Hackers. This forces the Gut-Hackers to waste one action token on movement in order to get more unit models into melee range. This wasted ACT cannot now be spent on melee attacks and means the Gut-Hackers can now only make 2 weak attacks (for 4 ACT) or one heavy attack (for 3 ACT) instead of one heavy and one weak attack.

So in the above example, the Fjell Warriors are certainly going to suffer some damage, but far less than if they had been charged by the Gut-Hackers! This tactic can work well for defensive units such as Hoplites and Legionnaires.


Godslayer Scrolls of Victory
A Series of Articles on Tactics and Strategy


Charges and Melee
PART 2

Counter-Attacking
One of the beauties of Godslayer is how interactively the play flows back and forth due to models being able to make passive activations. The most common passive activation is that of counter-attacking. Assuming it has action tokens left in its pool, when a model is attacked it may make a counter-attack. Unless a unit/model has a strike-rank above 1 all combat is assumed to be simultaneous, so counter-attacking models can kill opposing models even in the turn in which they themselves die.

Of course if you chose not to counter attack with a model/unit, and your models die, then those dead models clearly cannot make attacks later when the unit is activated normally. So the action tokens of the dead are wasted; they died for nothing.

For example, a unit of Grayhorns has charged a unit of Skulleaters. The Skulleaters have not yet activated in this round so they have their full quota of 5 Action tokens. They could either chose to make a passive activation and make counter attacks for each attack of the Grayhorns, or they can take their chances and make a normal activation later or do both. The player of the Skulleaters decides to wait until his standard activation, unfortunately 4 of his 6 Skulleaters are butchered by some lucky attacks by the Grayhorns. That means 2 attacks from 4 models are now wasted, equaling eight lost attacks.

So in most cases it makes sense to counter-attack, but this is not a black-and-white matter as you will see...


When not to Counter-Attack
There are disadvantages to counter-attacking. Firstly you get no fighting-style bonus when counter-attacking, and you cannot activate tactics during a passive activation, so cannot buff your attacks if the buff is not already activated. This means counter-attacks are usually weaker than making normal attacks during a standard activation.

More importantly, models of a unit may only counter-attack the model/unit which is attacking them, and you may have very few models in melee range to fight. For example, when your unit is charged by the opponent’s warlord and he has placed his model so that only one model of your unit is in melee range.

So it makes no sense to counter attack when:
A) Do not counter-attack if you anticipate you will not lose too many models of your unit from the enemy’s attacks. In this way you will be able to attack the enemy during your standard activation, benefitting from the possibility of using tactics, fighting-style bonus, spells, ordered tactics and other buffs.

B) Similarly to the above, if you have a creature in melee and you are sure that the pesky 1-2 model/s attacking it will not kill it this turn, then there is no desperate need to counter-attack. Instead you could just sit back and plan the vengeance you will meet-out when you make your standard activation.

This is also true of melee-characters* engaged with 1-2 mediocre enemy attackers. However, if your melee character or creature is engaged with three or more models, it often makes sense to perform at least one counter attack after the enemy’s first attacks in order to thin the enemy ranks and thereby reduce the amount of damage you will be taking with from later attacks.

In such cases you need to weigh up the advantage and disadvantage of not counter-attacking. The advantage is that you will be able to make much more effective attacks if you wait and attack during your standard activation. The disadvantage is that you will probably lose more life-points if you wait. It all depends on the relative numbers and melee capabilities of each model.

For example if my Valkyrie is being attacked by two Legionnaires, I would definitely not counter attack with my Valkyrie because she has very good defensive capabilities with her high ARM and Ethereal ability. Additionally, because of the high ARM of the Legionnaires, I will need to buff my Valkyrie’s attacks in order to do any serious damage. So in this case I wait.

Conversely, if my Wyldfolk Stormbow Beasthunter is being attacked by a Feral Hammerfist, I would not wait to attack later since the Hammerfist is very offensive but quite squishy. I know that my Beasthunter will be able to deal the Hammerfist considerable damage and perhaps even kill him with counterattacks because of the Beasthunter’s general good melee skills (MEL6 & POW4) and the bonus he will get from his Taxidermist ability (+1 MEL, MIS or POW). In this case I really don’t need to wait and use tactics or spells or fighting style to buff my Beasthunter – his natural abilities make him good enough already.

C) Warlords are very precious and if you think your warlord will lose more than a few life-points to the attacker/s, then it is better to counter attack, especially if you are faced with several mediocre models. By counter-attacking, your warlord could take out a couple of opposing models and still have a couple of action tokens left over for his standard activation.

D) In most cases do not counter-attack when you have let’s say only less than half of your models or less in melee range to fight. In that case it probably makes more sense to wait and to properly position your models so that more than half can get in their attacks.

Of course this puts one in a real quandary when a Warlord or Creature is butchering your unit models one by one, remaining in melee range with only one model at a time. But this is one of the advantages individual models have over units. In rare cases it could also make sense to risk counter-attacking in order to kill the last members of a depleted enemy unit.

E) You cannot counter-attack if your models are not in range of the attackers due to their longer weapons (for example range-2 spears). In this case you must wait for your standard activation and then move into melee range, then make your attacks.

F) Counter-attacking usually makes little sense if you have the ability/tactic Defiant in Death active. This tactic enables your models which are destroyed to be removed only at the end of the round. This means you can still use those models to fight during your own standard activation. So if you are attacked it makes more sense to wait until your standard activation, because then you can benefit from tactics, fighting-style bonus and buffing the unit with spells and orders.



Types of Attack
But let’s leave counter-attacking and return now to attacking, to examine attack types. You will notice that many models and units have several attack options listed on their profile cards or item cards. This enables you some tactical flexibility for example models with two-handed weapons often have a high-POW attack costing 3 ACT and a low-POW attack costing 2 ACT. Some models can even make 1-ACT attacks. Then there are some armed with weapons in both hands which can make 2 attacks for the cost of 3-ACT (using the Ambidextrous Fighter ability).

To some the degree the attack you chose depends on the type of enemy, so against heavily armored models it makes sense to use the high-POW attack. Elite units have 5 action tokens per round and if you buff them with an assigned action token from your warlord, then they can usually make two high-POW attacks per turn costing 3-ACT each or three 2-ACT attacks.

Models with the Ambidextrous Fighter ability should always use this type of attack when possible because both attacks count as a single action, which means opposing models can only make a single counter-attack following your double attack.
Rare exception: Since both attacks from the ambidextrous attacks must target the same model it can occasionally make sense to instead use the 2-ACT attack twice. For example if you are fighting low-armored, low life-points models like Gnolls or Bladeslingers, especially if they already activated that round and thus cannot counter attack. In this case you may kill two models instead of one.


Slay Movement
Remember that individual models (creatures, Warlords and characters) benefit from the Slay-Movement rule. This means that if they kill the target of their charge with their charge attack, then they gain D3 inches movement and can make the same attack again for free.

A free attack is always something really beneficial (not to mention the free movement), so to improve the chances of getting slay-movement there are a couple of things you can do. Firstly, if there is a choice of models to charge, then charge the one that will be easiest to kill, in most cases that means the model with the least remaining life-points. Secondly, be sure to use your best attack option. So if you have an ambidextrous option, then use that since both attacks will count as the charge attack, or if you have a high-POW attack that costs more ACT to use, then use that one. If attacking models with Ethereal, then use MAG attacks or enchanted attacks if you can.

As mentioned previously, with individual models it is usually best to engage less models, and this is especially true when charging because you will get D3 inches free movement after you cut down your first victim. If you place your models correctly, this will enable you to then engage the next model.

Remember that your free slay-movement attack is the same as the initial charge attack, so this is another reason to use your best attack on the charge. And of course, like all attacks in the round you charge, it also benefits from the charge bonus.


Which Fighting Style to Use
When you make melee attacks during your standard activation you have the option of using either offensive fighting style (gaining +1 to hit) or Powerful fighting style (gaining +1 damage on your damage rolls).

So which to use?
This is a matter of statistics. In general it is best to use the one which provides the greatest statistical improvement, but rolling to hit is more important.

Rolling to hit is a Yes/No result – either you hit or you don’t, whereas with the damage roll you get an incremental result depending on your 2D6 roll + POW vs. ARM of the target. So generally it would make more sense to fight with Offensive fighting Style since it is better to hit and do low damage than to miss.

This is indeed true up to a point. When the opponent has high armor and the attacking model has a low-POW attack, then it doesn’t matter if you hit or not because you will have such a low chance to do any damage. Although the damage roll is incremental we can also express the chances of doing damage (one or more points) or doing zero damage.

For example, some Legionnaires are attacking buffed Einherjer. The Legionnaires have a POW of 2 with their gladius attack vs. an ARM of 10. This means your attackers need to roll a 9+ on the damage roll to do any damage. In this case the Legionnaires have a 27.76% chance of scoring any damage on the damage roll. Compare that with their roll to hit – MEL 6 against DEF12 means a 6+ to hit (72.18% chance to hit). So in this case it clearly makes sense to choose the Powerful fighting style since this will increase the chance to do damage from 27.76% to 41.64 (a gain of 13.88%). If they instead chose Offensive style to gain the +1 to hit, they would have only increased the chance to hit from 72.18% to 83.29 (11.11% gain).

Actually the legionnaires have:
2.77% chance of doing 4 points damage
5.55% chance of doing 3 points damage
8.33% chance of doing 2 points damage
11.11% chance of doing 1 point damage
----------
27.76% total chance of doing any damage at all

Unlike a 1D6 based game where each of the 6 numbers on a die has an equal chance of being rolled, in the 2D6-based games like Godslayer, each number has a different chance of being rolled because of the possible combinations. For example: to roll a 12 there is only one possible combination (6+6), but to roll a 7, there are six possible combinations (6+1, 5+2, 4+3, 3+4, 2+5, 1+6).

We will look at this in more depth in article 3 of Scrolls of Victory. For now it is enough to know that you want both the to-hit roll and the damage roll to be a 5+ roll or better, but most important is the to-hit roll.

So for example if you have a 7+ to hit and 6+ to cause any damage, then you should chose the Offensive fighting style so that you gain the +1 on the to-hit roll, making it 6+ to hit and 6+ to damage.

Or if you have a 6+ to hit and 7+ to damage, you should still chose the +1 to hit, giving you a 5+ to hit and 7+ to damage.

Once you are at 5+ to hit, then consider taking Powerful fighting style to increase your chances of causing damage. Remember, if you do not hit, then the damage bonus is useless.

Godslayer is structured so that the average POW of models is around 4, and the average ARM is 7. So in an average case, you are already at 3+ to do any damage.

The average MEL of models is 6 and average DEF is 13, so in most cases you need a 7+ to hit. So you can see in most cases it makes sense to take the Offensive fighting style to improve the to-hit roll.

When is Offensive fighting style not as important?
• Once you are hitting on a 5+ (83.29%), it can be more useful to go for the +1 on the damage roll by taking Powerful fighting style.
• Or if you need are faced with a difficult 9+ to cause any damage and your roll to hit is already 6+ or better, then it also makes sense to fight with Powerful fighting style.

Here for your reference are the probabilities for 2D6 dice rolls:
12+ 2.77%
11+ 8.32%
10+ 16.65%
9+ 27.76%
8+ 41.64%
7+ 58.30%
6+ 72.18%
5+ 83.29%
4+ 91.62%
3+ 97.17%
2+ 100%

Using Tactics in Melee
Many models have some kind of tactic they can activate to increase their performance in melee. Hill Ogres can make their circular Slash, attack multiple models, Skulleaters can make Slay-Movement with their Carnage tactic, Fjell Warriors gain +1 to hit with their Skilled Strike ability etc. In most cases it makes sense to use these tactics, and so you should always try to activate them. Remember that before performing a charge action it is possible to use tactics, so you should do so before your charge. Some tactics cost zero ACT to use, while others cost 1 or more ACT. If you know you are going to need a tactic that costs 1+ ACT for one of your units, then try to assign an action token to that unit from the warlord or any other valid way before you activate the unit. This prevents you spending ACT which could be used to make attacks. For characters it is not so critical that they gain ACT from the warlord since they often have more ACT than units, and their effects are usually less than the massed effect of a unit, (and so it makes more sense to spend the warlord’s ACT on units).

The above also holds true for spells. Generally it is a better investment to cast a spell on a unit rather than a character, and units buffed by spells before melee starts will surely perform better in battle; the same for ordered tactics and special talents.

Models can have one self-tactic one ordered-tactic active at the same time and can be affected by any number of spells and special talents simultaneously.


Breaking Units - go for the Head
It is possible to save a lot of time (which would normally be spent stuck in melee accumulating losses to your warband) if you can break units and cause them to flee. This requires killing half or more of the models in a unit in one turn. Not so easy against large units. Remember this is half the models in a single turn, not the whole round. This could be one of your turns or one of your opponent’s turns (for example when you counter-attack an enemy unit).

Killing the leader of a unit reduces the leadership of that unit by one point but keep in mind, that leaders normally have more LP than normal troopers. This increases the chances that the unit will fail the bravery test when it comes. To increase the chances of provoking the test, concentrate your attacks to eliminate entire models as fast as possible rather than just damaging all models in the unit.

Final Note
That’s all for this second Scrolls of Victory. I hope the above will help you gain many victories.

The next article will concentrate on exposing some of the core mechanics of the game and show how you can best use these to your advantage. If there is a specific subject you would like to see discussed in the future then please leave a note in the forum.
(This post was last modified: 08-20-2014 02:38 AM by David.)
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
08-20-2014 10:44 AM
Post: #9
RE: Problems getting most out of Trolloth



Madcat Offline
Member
***

Posts: 142
Joined: Feb 2013
Thanks David, awesome writeup!! I really enjoyed reading it....Smile
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
08-24-2014 12:35 AM
Post: #10
RE: Problems getting most out of Trolloth



David Offline
Administrator
*******

Posts: 1,216
Joined: Jun 2012
Glad you liked it.
I will post another article in a couple of days.
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)