SACRED FAMILIAR?
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SACRED FAMILIAR?
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03-19-2013 10:55 PM
Post: #21
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



Khazrak Offline
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@Skylifter: Like a unit of Hoplites, which you have in your warband in many combos anyway? Alternatively Hill Ogres, which even block LOS for the Wyldfolk Stormbow Beasthunter.
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03-19-2013 11:16 PM
Post: #22
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



Skylifter Offline
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You seem really troubled by this. I can only say I can see loads of completely broken combos all over the book. But since every faction is broken, it's quite a balanced game.

A Gorelord can crush a whole unit just as easily as the oracle. And his charge threat range is 13 inches. 15 with Long Legs. 20 with that spell's upgrade effect, which works on average dice from the Fallow Shaman.

13 inch security range is barely enough to get all those spells off, considering pre-measuring is not allowed. And if you misjudge and he is in range, you can kiss your fancy spellcaster girl goodbye.

Did I mention he has MEL 8 and can give himself an additional +1 MEL and +1 POW on charges for a total of MEL 10, POW 7 with Bleeder? He can hit her on 6's with Levitate on and will kill her with a single blow on average dice. He then gains an action token and can move 4 inches to engage something else and kill again.*

Sacrificing a screening unit of mongrels to get him in range unscathed is not really a problem, and if you screen her with a unit: he gains one action token for every living model he destroys and may move 4 inches per kill, too, so he'll get to her.

So that was one possible solution, using Banebrood because I've read those quite thoroughly, whereas I did not read the Nordgaard entries as much yet.

Yes, the oracle can dish out loads of damage. But without the potion of Argathon, it really isn't that much. And that only works for one round. Then you also have to roll dice, and I'd rather not put so many eggs in one basket only to roll badly on two of those three spells. She still needs 6's to cast Wrath of the Gods against most standard units, more against elite. I've rolled enough fumbles in a row to not place my faith in those two dice rolls during the one round I used that potion and didn't levitate so I could use trance.

And then even when she does kill a complete unit on that one turn, she still isn't ahead in the piece trade game, because with so many points you paid for her, the opposing army will still be roughly equal to what else you've got, and that is not even considering any actual in-game tactics.

* I just realised that if I ever start collecting Banebrood, I'll have to call my Gorelord Machete.
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03-19-2013 11:59 PM
Post: #23
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



Khazrak Offline
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(03-19-2013 11:16 PM)Skylifter Wrote:  A Gorelord can crush a whole unit just as easily as the oracle. And his charge threat range is 13 inches. 15 with Long Legs. 20 with that spell's upgrade effect, which works on average dice from the Fallow Shaman.

If you're using Howling Mad for the +1 POW and MEL, remember that it counts only for the charge attack. Sure, MEL9 and POW6 with the Bleeder is still impressive but far from as devestating as the Oracle because she has to "hit" only once and then roll damage for them all.

The Gorelord on the other hand has to hit each time (albeit normally on a lower roll) and after the Slay Movement, he is affected by Free Strikes. In the very best case, you hit and kill each and every time - means 3 attacks for the first 6 AP + 1 Slay Movement kill, resulting in 4 fresh AP, 2 more kills, 1 more attack - makes 7 kills altogether. During this killing spree he is prone to counter attacks and fumbles and only starts the killing in melee.

Don't get me wrong, you have a valid point with the Gorelord but in my eyes, even he is not a match powerwise for the Oracle, which still has a very good protection roll and normally is cheaper. Wink
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2013 12:03 AM by Khazrak.)
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03-20-2013 09:39 AM
Post: #24
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



Skylifter Offline
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She has to make a magic attack roll against each model in the unit targeted by Wrath of the Gods before it suffers damage, too, so no "only succeed in one roll and then cause damage to all".

There are other items for the Gorelord I forgot, namely the Witchweed Extract and the Gauntlets of Garrond-Gar. He maxes out at MEL 10 POW 7 on non-charge attacks (+1 for both on the charge attack) and thereby hits average DEF of 13 on 3's. She hits that on 5's.

He kills everything he hits on average dice, she doesn't, but she will probably hit that twice, so probably do about the same amount of damage (after all, her highest POW is 6, and Wrath of the Gods will only have 3 or 4, depending on Trance or no Trance, while his POW is always 6 or 7).

He gets one turn of +1 MEL with his potion, without which he still hits very reliably and has the same POW of minimum 6, while she has only one turn of Potion of Argathon, without which her spells have POW 4/3 (Chain Lightning) and POW 2 (Wrath of the Gods) if she wants to throw them all out there with a 1-point-Trance. If she puts Trance to 3, she can still get the POW of the Potion, but then won't hit as much. So even on her one turn of glory, her POW is significantly lower than his is all game.

He works against units, characters, creatures and warlords, her spells will not be nearly as damaging vs. anything but units, because they can hit single models only once each.

The Oracle is very squishy, the Gorelord is not.

If you want to believe she is broken and he isn't, go on and do so, but I think you are deceiving yourself.
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03-20-2013 07:07 PM
Post: #25
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



André Offline
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regarding all the "broken" things mentioned: those things are all intended to be like that! itt was playtested like that and for this purpose Smile some things are of course better combinations then others, but you also have to keep in mind the costs and efforts that lie in some combos. everything mentioned in this thread has occurred to us duringthe testgaming phase of 3 years and yes, everything is fine with all of that!
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03-20-2013 07:55 PM
Post: #26
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



Khazrak Offline
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(03-20-2013 09:39 AM)Skylifter Wrote:  She has to make a magic attack roll against each model in the unit targeted by Wrath of the Gods before it suffers damage, too, so no "only succeed in one roll and then cause damage to all".

Ah, I was thinking by the errata text, that she rolls once for the whole unit, a bit like template attack rules. I'm not an english native speaker and so maybe got confused a bit. Wink
If she has to roll for each of them separately, it looks not that extremely nasty anymore, although still very very strong.

I'm also sorry for abusing this thread a bit (which was actually about the Sacred Familiar)!

However, in my experience characters like the Gorelord are quite strong, but are too easily bogged down or can die by counter attacks. In my last game the tooled up Halodyne Demarchon (which in my eyes is quite good in defending himself) died just because I smacked him down to the ground from 4" away with my Warsmith and then charged in with another unit. This wouldn't happen that easy to a ranged damage monster. Wink

But if we want to discuss "broken" stuff, we should maybe open another thread.

@André: That's one of the main reasons, why I like this game. There is nothing really crappy, no dead army list entries and a lot of epic rocking stuff! Smile
It just has to be balanced - all I'm saying.
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03-20-2013 10:38 PM
Post: #27
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



David Offline
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The game was designed to reward intelligent play and use of combos, but we ensured that none of them was broken. It would be boring if powerful combos were not possible.

Lets have a look at some of the down-sides to these two examples:

Oracle
The Oracle combo I mentioned requires 3-4 successful spell casting rolls then a roll to hit against every model. Plus it costs about 100 points for a full equipped Oracle and a Priestess to make this work.

Consider also that this spell has a Range of 10 inches and if she uses Trance to upgrade the POW of the spells, then she is not allowed to cast spells by chanelling. that means any model can engage her and many will be able to charge her at that range, so you also need to pay for a pretty good bodyguard - lets say 70 points for a minimum unit of 6 Hoplites.

If you invest that many points and you position your models correctly, and you succeed in all your spell casting rolls, and have decent results in your to-hit rolls, then you definitely deserve to massacre an enemy unit.

The Oracle is very fragile, despite her protection roll and levitate. there are plenty of ways to kill the oracle in melee and missile attacks. How about this:

A Farfarer armed with Beltain Bow - which can target models even behind the bases of opposing models! So you cannot hide the Oracle behind an bodyguard. Use a Druid to cast spells on the Farfarer such as Hurricane Winds (+1 POW for missile attacks). Close in to within 20 inches of the Oracle, and drink your Dexterity Draft, increasing your MIS to 10 and draw your Hunting Arrows (+2 POW). Then you make two MIS attacks at MIS 10 vs DEF14 (so 4+ to hit) and POW5 from 20 inches away and ignoring models in the way. If you don't kill the Oracle then you will scare her so bad she will sopend the rest of the game hiding in a forest.

Gorelord
this guy is a monstrous terror in melee and that's how he is supposed to be. It would be rather disappointing for a mlee warlord to not be great in melee. He can chomp his way through half a unit of normal troops, but when you attack him with 3+ elite models of your own, he quickly evaporates.
Or use the Farfarer against him.

The Oracle is intended to be the most powerful spell-caster in the game, and the Gorelord is intended to be one of the very best melee warlords in the game.


Another point regarding both models. The above examples place them in a role of offensive damage-causing to the enemy. However, Godslayer's rules are designed to reward most the combination of warlords buffing units. Yes its possible to win using them offensively but buffing warlords are generally even more effective than damage-causing warlords because of one of the core mechanics of the game which is the effect of a buff on a unit. Assigning an action token to a unit of ten models effectively multiplies that action token by X10. the same goes for every ordered tactic, buffing spell, talent and aura etc.

The above combos with the Gorelord and Oracle are powerful, but for every combo and situation there is a way to overcome it. This we know from around 2,500 hours of playtesting. After any powerful combo, it is the turn of the opponent, and your Oracle, Gorelord or whatever is often sitting in a position where it can be charged or engaged by other models. Absolutely you will suffer unpleasant casualties when facing these warlords with these combos, but you need to calculate those into your strategy, then you will be fine :-)
Perhaps you get your ass brutally kicked once, but next time you will be prepared for a repeat performance.

There are also many other delicious combos possible, all of which have been playtested and approved.
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2013 10:40 PM by David.)
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03-20-2013 11:12 PM
Post: #28
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



Skylifter Offline
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That's exactly what I meant when I said "Yes, the Halodynes are broken, but so is every other faction, so it balances out again" or something along those lines. "Broken" in this case means overpowered.

When you read the book and discover a powerful combo in a faction you don't collect and play, you tend to feel that it is too hard, whereas your faction often seems less powerful because as you play all its combos, you realise that in the game, they have drawbacks, making them difficult to pull off or too dice-dependant.

I am currently reading the faction rules in-depth, trying to find combos I'd like to play, since I want to collect a second faction but cannot yet decide which one it will be. I think there are a lot more very good combos to be found. I'll probably look at Mortans or Wyldfolk next, as those are the factions I am least interested in up to now. Maybe that'll change.
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03-21-2013 01:08 PM
Post: #29
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



David Offline
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Yeah, perhaps "powerful" is a more suitable word than "broken". :-)

While playtesting we use "broken" to describe rules which are so strong that they ruin the balance of the system itself.

These combos were already tested and although powerful, they did not harm the balance of the game.
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03-21-2013 11:35 PM
Post: #30
RE: SACRED FAMILIAR?



Skylifter Offline
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(03-21-2013 01:08 PM)David Wrote:  Yeah, perhaps "powerful" is a more suitable word than "broken". :-)

While playtesting we use "broken" to describe rules which are so strong that they ruin the balance of the system itself.

These combos were already tested and although powerful, they did not harm the balance of the game.

In our gaming community, we usually use the word "broken" the same way.

However, in systems like Godslayer which offer a lot of combos, you often find combos which at first glance look broken, especially if you haven't found many other combos yet. Then, some time later, you realise that every faction has powerful combos and that every powerful combo has a weakness that can be exploited.

But since at first glance, it looked broken, we came to agree that if everything in the game is broken, it balances out again.
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