Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations
Megalith Games - Official Forums


Post Reply 
Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations
Author Message
12-07-2012 10:46 AM
Post: #1
Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



Rhunmaki Offline
Newbie
*

Posts: 22
Joined: Dec 2012
So, I have just some maybe obvious questions that we discussed in our game group.

1) Instinctive Wisdom
The Bisotaur can sustain one Spell in total, right? Not one for free and one with spending one action token as usual.

2) Upgrade/Permanent Mutation
When a mutation is on an enemy unit/model do You add the magic value of the enemy when try to upgrade/make permanent a mutation? The wording of the spells seems to indicate that You target the enemy and so You should have to add the magic value...

Das Chaos ist überall, selbst in der Ordnung.

To know when you are in heaven, you must go through hell.
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
12-07-2012 02:36 PM
Post: #2
RE: Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



André Offline
Administrator
*******

Posts: 1,380
Joined: Feb 2012
1. he may sustain one spell but does not need to pay an action token for it.
2. yes, you would actually need to add the MAG value of the enemy... that's quite tough, butmaybe you want to take some gut-hackers! Smile.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
12-07-2012 03:33 PM
Post: #3
RE: Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



Rhunmaki Offline
Newbie
*

Posts: 22
Joined: Dec 2012
Thanks for the quick answer.

The gut-hackers are a nice idea, but there are units you simple can't target, because you can't beat the target number...

Das Chaos ist überall, selbst in der Ordnung.

To know when you are in heaven, you must go through hell.
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2012 01:38 AM
Post: #4
RE: Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



David Offline
Administrator
*******

Posts: 1,225
Joined: Jun 2012
Yes, there are a couple of instances where a 13+ could be needed.

We designed the MAG stats of the models to reflect their natural magical defensiveness and we wanted to have a broad range to make the game models more diverse. So we have Legio Mortum and Reaver runts with a MAG of 2 up through mediocre troops with a MAG of 3 to elites like Sons of War with a MAG of 4.

Then there are oaccasional magical characters with a MAG of 5 who are very magically defensive but with no spell-casting abilities as such.

And then there are a few units like the Longshadows and spell casters with a MAG of 6-7

then there is the Oracle with MAG 8.

Nordgaard Clans subfaction ability also boosts that sub-factions magical defenses with a´-2 penalty to casting rolls against them.

When casting Malevolent Mutation spells (spell complexity 10) with a Bisotaur Shaman who has a MAG of 7, you need a basic 3+ opponent's MAG.
So against poor troops with MAG2 you need a 5+.
Against MAG3 models you need a 6+ (a 72.18% chance of success).
And even against MAG 4 models you need only a 7+ (a 58.3% chance).

Against the Oracle who has MAG8, you need to score 18, so you would need an 11+ (an 8.32% chance).

Against a buffed Oracle who has a MAG of 9 and when casting a spell with complexity 10 with only a Fallow Shaman (MAG 6), you face an impossible 13+ roll. But in any case, the Oracle has the ability Magic Resistence making her immune to the effects of spells, so there would be no point targetting her anyway.

Or here's another:
A Fallow Shaman who is seriously wounded (and therefore suffering -1 MAG) has a MAG of 5. If he casts a Malevolent Mutation spell with complexity 10 against a Temple Subfaction Godquester who is buffing her MAG from 7 ot 8 with the spell Grace of the Gods, then he will need a 13+.

So you are absolutely correct that there are a few impossible rolls, but there are really extreme. That's part of the system, just as with melee and shooting - some targets are just not worth attacking with either a MEL or a MIS or a MAG attack.

We did not want all models to be uniformly difficult to target; instead we wanted to include diversity which adds a little more strategic challenge, forcing players to decide which models to use against which enemy models.

I think there are not so many impossible cases like those above. Maybe you have some in mind?

There are also a few models with immunity to all magic through an ability (Scarjarl Runescars) or an item or spell etc.
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2012 12:22 PM
Post: #5
RE: Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



Rhunmaki Offline
Newbie
*

Posts: 22
Joined: Dec 2012
oh, don't get me wrong. The malevolent mutations are fine. They have a complexity of 10 + MAG of victim... That's hard to beat if you want to cripple someone like Longshadows and the like. And there the Gut-Hackers are a true blessing.
But the problem is that the upgrade/permanent mutation is very hard to get on model with a low MAG. And you get very fast to the point where it is uncastable.
I mean permanent mutation has a complexity of 15 plus a MAG of 4 for some elite troops and you will need the 11+. So it is uncastable on a model with a MAG of 6... It is fine to me, because the malevolent mutations are strong as they are. But to our group it was not clear if you have to add the MAG or not. Because technically you are not really targeting the model you are targeting the mutation. ;-)

But I like the idea that my Longshadows are immune to his permanent mutation... Saves me some worrying about their survival. Or keeps his Shaman occupied with casting the mutations...

Das Chaos ist überall, selbst in der Ordnung.

To know when you are in heaven, you must go through hell.
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2012 03:00 PM
Post: #6
RE: Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



Simon Offline
Super Moderator
******

Posts: 537
Joined: Jun 2012
Permanent mutation has the limitation to "living friendly model/unit", so there will be no permanent cripples Wink

"I find your lack of faith disturbing"
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
12-13-2012 01:10 AM
Post: #7
RE: Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



David Offline
Administrator
*******

Posts: 1,225
Joined: Jun 2012
(12-12-2012 12:22 PM)Rhunmaki Wrote:  But the problem is that the upgrade/permanent mutation is very hard to get on model with a low MAG. And you get very fast to the point where it is uncastable.

Okay I see what you mean. Upgrade Mutation is on a 14+ and Permanent Mutation is on a 15+.

As Simon mentioned, Permanent Mutation only applies to friendly models/units, and such spells count as incantations, so you do not add the MAG of the target to the casting complexity because they are of course friendly troops.

In such cases casting Permanent Mutations on models rolling 15+ with a MAG of 7 means an 8+ to succeed, which is a 41.64% chance. That's pretty decent odds for such a hard effect since permanent mutations are in game terms effectively like spells being cast every round with guaranteed success and costing zero ACT.


Upgrade Mutation spells cast on freindly models using the other mutation spell-sets would count as incantation spells and would be cast without adding the target MAG to the complexity. So that means an easy 7+ to succeed for the Bisotaur Shaman (58.3% chance of success).

Regarding the Upgrade Mutations, I would refer to page 77 section on Thaumaturgy "Spells which target an enemy model unit take into account the MAG statistic of the target." the Original Malevolent Muitation was cast against an enemy model and so Malevolent Mutations would count as thaumaturgy spells. Since the target of the Upgrade Mutation of a Malevolent Mutation spell is still the same target (an enemy model), for Malevolent Mutations spell-set spells, this means they also count as Thaumaturgy spells since they are indeed targetting enemy models.

You are absolutely right that this does make it pretty challenging to get the upgrades through with the Malevolent Mutations but they are very hard effects.

Against mediocre models with MAG2, you will need a basic 10+ with the Bisotaur Shaman. (16.65% chance).
Against MAG3 models you will need an 11 or 12 (8.32% chance).
so very tough rolls, but when you have Guthackers with you and can benefit from their Aura of Corruption. This makes it realistic to get Upgrade Mutations through on Malevolent Mutations against models with MAG 2 & 3.

That's a lot of models in the game: Hoplites Amazons, Hill Ogres, BeastHunter, Bladeslingers, Scabhta Hunters, Fjellgangr, Bloodvarg, fimbul toughborns, Skannfyrd Kinswords, chainslayer, Scorpio, Catacysm Catapult, Xisteri Bombers, Carnifexors, Legio Mortum, Legionnaires Princeptor etc.

Of course that does leave all warlords, spell-casters, elite magical troops and magical characters plus Clans sub-faction models outside the realms of the probably and even renders many impossible.

This was intended to be that way due to the effects of the upgrade being so powerful.

In wave-one, the Guthackers Aura of Corruption is pretty much your best option for such a plan. Witchweed Extract (+1 to all stats) and the Staff of Mors (reroll any one die once) could also be used in conjunction to make even MAG4 models realistic targets for upgrading Malevolent Mutations.

Perhaps in the future we can consider an item which could be used to buff spell-casting of Malevolent Mutations, but that will need careful play-testing since it would be really powerful.
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
12-17-2014 12:16 AM
Post: #8
RE: Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



eshjus Offline
Junior Member
**

Posts: 41
Joined: Dec 2014
But the 2 spell equipped on the bisotaur are equipped for all the game?
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
12-17-2014 08:25 AM
Post: #9
RE: Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



Raoul Offline
Super Moderator
******

Posts: 1,321
Joined: Jun 2012
Not sure if I get the question right, but every spellcaster who purchases spells can use them for the whole game.

Smashing empires of man is a moral duty
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
12-17-2014 01:35 PM
Post: #10
RE: Bisotaur Shaman and Mutations



eshjus Offline
Junior Member
**

Posts: 41
Joined: Dec 2014
I mean with their urghast disciple/novice it's written that they are automatically equipped with 2/1 spell they have buy. that mean, for example, if a shaman have chose Long Leg, with this ability ability he has +1 MOV for the whole game?
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)