Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine
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Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine
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09-28-2014 11:20 AM
Post: #1
Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



Meph Offline
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Hello,

If I have a unit and use Grace of Achallon on it, then cast Killing Machine on the same unit, do I roll 4 dice and discard the two lowest? My understanding is that I resolve each tactic/spell seperately, therefore allowing for validating such a play.
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09-28-2014 08:33 PM
Post: #2
RE: Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



laurens Offline
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hard one: but the rules clearly say roll one additional die.
So I would say you get to roll 4 and discard the two lowest.

to me it seems a waste of magic / tactic.

I'm looking forward to the real answer of the Moderators

Club: The Green Knight

"You have to learn the rules of the game.
And then you have to play better than anyone else."
Albert Einstein
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09-28-2014 08:58 PM
Post: #3
RE: Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



Meph Offline
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Why do you see it as a waste?

I have only three games under my belt, but I have really benefited from Grace of Achallon alone greatly. With four dice you are far more likely to score a critical, which goes a long way in defeating Warlords or Dwarfs with Hoplites.
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09-28-2014 09:58 PM
Post: #4
RE: Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



spy Offline
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This is really a hard one...

You may roll one additional die and discard the lowest one (2 times).

Version a:
You may interprete this as rolling 4 dice and discard the lowest 2 dice.
Verison b:
You may also interprete it as roll one additional die and discard the lowest one. Then the same effect happens again (which results in rolling 3 dice and discard the lowest one).

My gut feeling tells me that Version b is correct (2nd time the same effect is ignored because effect is already in place).

I guess in this case the only person who may answer this are the creators of the game.

About the critical: First you reduce the result to two dice (and you may not choose the dice which is removed). THEN you check for critical.
E.g. rolling 4 4 5 will result in 4 5 and not resulting in a critical. Even when 4 4 would have been enough to hit.
(This post was last modified: 09-28-2014 10:00 PM by spy.)
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09-28-2014 11:53 PM
Post: #5
RE: Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



Meph Offline
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Nowhere in the rules can I find an example of two distinct sources providing an identical bonus and excluding each other. In the event of rolling four dice, you are more likely to roll high doubles, therefore leading to a larger chance for critting.
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09-29-2014 07:10 AM
Post: #6
RE: Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



spy Offline
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Exactly.

I couldn't find any similar cases either.

I found many cases "increase MEL / STR / ... +1 several times" for example.
So a +1 bonus stacks.

And many cases where the result was the same text (e.g. unit is on fire (2x), unit gets long charge from bard but is light infantry already).
In all these cases the effect does not stack.
So I assume that identical text does not stack.

(For me the rule "number stacks, identical text not" worked so far. This would be the first exception.)

And if I am just reading the text I would add 2 dice and descard the lowest one (so 3 dice are left). Pretty cool but for sure not was the game designers Intention was.

About the criticals:
You are right. The chances to roll high doubles is increased. Interresting. I need to consider that in the future too... Wink
(This post was last modified: 09-29-2014 07:29 AM by spy.)
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09-29-2014 08:56 AM
Post: #7
RE: Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



Meph Offline
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Yes, but in terms of "Fire" it is directly stated in the Rules that a model cannot be under the influence of the same continous effect twice. For charging as light infantry there is no way to multiply the charge range, as you have a straightforward formula for calculating the distance that stems from the unit type, which cannot be duplicated.

This is a classic struggle of qualitative vs quantitative Smile
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10-01-2014 08:50 AM
Post: #8
RE: Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



udunsflame Offline
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I can follow what Spy says. I think you must treat is like same text, so no cumulative dice...

Maybe in an erata they should give this effect a name...

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udunsminis
"A trap is only a trap if you walk into it before you see it"- Flint Fireforge.
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10-01-2014 11:29 PM
Post: #9
RE: Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



Meph Offline
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Then, for example, a Reaver Tyrant gets, in addition to Barbarous Strength, an effect from a spell allowing to re-roll any any one damage die, he is still only allowed to re-roll exclusively one die due to duplication of text?
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10-02-2014 09:02 PM
Post: #10
RE: Grace of Achallon + Killing Machine



spy Offline
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I had some time to study how things shift if you roll 2 dice, 3 dice minus the lowest and 4 dice minus 2 lowest dieces:

Explanation:
1st row: Number rolled
2nd row: how many possible combinations exists
3rd row: % of 100%
4th row: chances in % to roll this result (e.g. you ned 6 or more: 72,22% chance to role this result)

2 dices:

2 1 2,78 100,00
3 2 5,56 97,22
4 3 8,33 91,67
5 4 11,11 83,33
6 5 13,89 72,22
7 6 16,67 58,33
8 5 13,89 41,67
9 4 11,11 27,78
10 3 8,33 16,67
11 2 5,56 8,33
12 1 2,78 2,78

3 dice (lowest removed):

2 1 0,46 100,00
3 3 1,39 99,54
4 7 3,24 98,15
5 12 5,56 94,91
6 19 8,80 89,35
7 27 12,50 80,56
8 34 15,74 68,06
9 36 16,67 52,31
10 34 15,74 35,65
11 27 12,50 19,91
12 16 7,41 7,41

4 dice (2 lowest removed):

2 1 0,08 100,00
3 4 0,31 99,92
4 15 1,16 99,61
5 33 2,55 98,46
6 65 5,02 95,91
7 109 8,41 90,90
8 171 13,19 82,48
9 223 17,21 69,29
10 261 20,14 52,08
11 243 18,75 31,94
12 171 13,19 13,19

What you can clearly see is with 4 dice it is almost impossible to not hit the enemy. Smile
Even weak troops would hit a Gorelord with a 50% chance.

Especially when you combine these effects with strike rank +1 it becomes quite unfair (<--my personal opinion).
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